Alma 5 Brethren
I was looking at how people view Alma 5:16
I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?
Everybody that I read used it like this sister
Joanne B. Doxey - I love being a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister, a woman in these latter days. The Lord knows us and loves each of us and desires to bless us in our important work. We must be willing to come unto him; to accept his will over our own wants; to bring souls unto him; to feed his lambs and his sheep, so that at that great day when we meet him face to face he will say, “Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness”
Everyone seems to have missed the whole point!
They messed up because they were using the Book of Mormon, as Maxwell said, as a religious quote book.
Alma was saying that to attack members of the church who believed they were saved by works.
Interaction by Justin Koh
Oh I see. Let me know what you have found out! I would love to hear it!
Alma was talking to members of the Church…. (I have to do it in small bites. Very slow computer)
Alma 5:6 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church....
Alma 5:22 And now I ask of you, my brethren...
Alma 5:37 O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness
These members, brethren, were the kids of those who were baptized in the waters of Mormon.
He had to show them how messed up they were. Alma 4 describes the problems among the members. Alma gave up the judgement seat so that he could address the problems..
He asks them if they remembered the experiences of thier fahters because apparently he thought they didn't.
3. I, Alma, having been consecrated by my father, Alma, to be a high priest over the church of God, he having power and authority from God to do these things, behold, I say unto you that he began to establish a church in the land which was in the borders of Nephi; yea, the land which was called the land of Mormon; yea, and he did baptize his brethren in the waters of Mormon.
4. And behold, I say unto you, they were delivered out of the hands of the people of king Noah, by the mercy and power of God.
5. And behold, after that, they were brought into bondage by the hands of the Lamanites in the wilderness; yea, I say unto you, they were in captivity, and again the Lord did deliver them out of bondage by the power of his word; and we were brought into this land, and here we began to establish the church of God throughout this land also.
6. And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have you sufficiently retained in remembrance his mercy and long-suffering towards them? And moreover, have ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell?
7. Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.
8. And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not.
9. And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved.
Interaction by Justin Koh
I think Sister Doxey quote it to suit her point. I mean, Alma may mean something different but it does that she has missed the point. I don't see why's she's wrong.
He was saying that these brethren he was addressing were, like their fathers that they weren’t retaining in their remembrance, were in a deep sleep, they were in the midst of darkness,the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.
Interaction by Justin Koh
Sister Doxey was just trying to say that if we come unto Christ and do what He tells us to do, he would say that to us. She is not referencing the context by which Alma said what he said. She is just quoting it to assist in the point she is making. I don't think she is blind or illiterate.
Hold on. Follow me here!
Alma talks of the Mighty Change that their fathers experienced:
10. And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
11. Behold, I can tell you--did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
12. And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
13. And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
Alma believed in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts,
Now here is the thing, right here! Asks Alma, And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you?
Apparently not. That’s why Alma had to go among them!
The whole sermon hinges on the next question. We can understand the verse in question only by this question….
Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you?
This is the condition that was the nut of their fathers’ conversion.
Now the verse: did they view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?
16. I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?
If they so imagined that their works were wonderful and so the Lord would compliment how righteous they have been, and they relied on that, they didn’t “exercise faith in the redemption”.
He was saying their imaginations were vain!
Interaction by Justin Koh
Yes faith in the redemption must be coupled and exemplified in deeds. So both an inward belief and an outward faith is needed.
He then goes on to ask them, given they even knew how terrible they did in this probation (like all the truly humble know), that they could come up with excuses like “no one is perfect”, “my sins weren’t so bad”, “there were worse people than me (publican in the temple)”, “I was just doing what everyone was doing”…..
All of those were lies, and they knew it!
18. Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?
All of their excuses that they were thinking they could use to defend themselves did not remove the quilt of setting at defiance the commandments of God.
20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
How many members think this? These guys did.
How many think that the Telestial Kingdom will be just fine as long as they can stay subject to the devil here. It’s more fun. It doesn’t sound so bad there!
God saves all the works of His hands, even those subject to the devil all their lives, they say. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
These brethren thought they could be saved even so.
And so Alma asks the rhetorically to prove they are wrong:
22. And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?
23. Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
His simple message to them is:
21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you?
You see what I am saying?
Everyone on the citation index were quoting the guys who thought that they could be saved by their works of righteousness.
Interaction by Justin Koh
I understand
SAYS YOU: "Yes faith in the redemption must be coupled and exemplified in deeds. So both an inward belief and an outward faith is needed."
ME: Look closely at this verse. It is so important:
Helaman 14:13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.
Look at this:
1 Thessalonians 1:3 New International Version
3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
The idea is that if you have faith, you will repent and work. But faith in the redemption comes first. Love comes first. and even after all that, we are redeemed by His Merits.
Not by our works of righteousness as Alma’s brethren of the church were relying on.
Interaction by Justin Koh
What does believe mean? It means an inward + outward faith
Interaction by Justin Koh
Faith without works is dead
Interaction by Justin Koh
Of course faith in the redemption comes first, please don't misinterpret my words
That’s why when Alma 5:16 is quoted by people expecting to hear the Lord base salvation on their works of righteousness, they quote that verse waaay out of context and make it say what it doesn’t say.
Interaction by Justin Koh
Once we have obtained that inward faith, it will enable and fuel us to engage in outward faith (works).
Faith without works is dead. That’s because works “spring from” faith. Thessolonians Greek meant that. Springs like a spring of water that naturally flows.
Wesley says faith ”acknowledges the necessity and merit of his death, and the power of his resurrection acknowledges his death as the only sufficient means of redeeming man from death eternal, and his resurrection as the restoration of us all to life and immortality; inasmuch as he "was delivered for our sins, and rose again for our justification." Christian faith is then, not only an assent to the whole gospel of Christ, but also a full reliance on the blood of Christ; a trust in the merits of his life, death, and resurrection; a recumbency upon him as our atonement and our life, as given for us, and living in us; and, in consequence hereof, a closing with him, and cleaving to him, as our "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption," or, in one word, our salvation.”.
Someone explained the difference between belief and faith to me. He asked if I believed that he could push a barrel over a tightrope across a canyon. I said, yes. He said that is belief. Faith is you getting in the barrel!
Interaction by Justin Koh
Yes, so true!
Here is a little Wesley for you. It is long. But the idea is that Adam was given the Law of Obedience. He had to be perfect. But he could because he was created in the image of God. He had the capacity to obey perfectly….
But he didn’t. He fell and the effects of the fall were passed on to us. We could no longer keep the Law of Obedience in our fallen state. So we were given the Law of Grace. the Law of grace did not expect perfect obedience. Instead, it required a humble dependence on the Atonement. Pride killed the devil. Pride killed Adam. god made a plan where humility was the thing that was required.
Here is what is required by the man who insists on living under the Law of Obedience:
I. 1. And, First, "the righteousness which is of the law saith, The man which doeth these things shall live by them." Constantly and perfectly observe all these things to do them, and then thou shalt live for ever. This law, or covenant, (usually called the Covenant of Works,) given by God to man in Paradise, required an obedience perfect in all its parts, entire and wanting nothing, as the condition of his eternal continuance in the holiness and happiness wherein he was created.
2. It required that man should fulfil all righteousness, inward and outward, negative and positive: That he should not only abstain from every idle word, and avoid every evil work, but should keep every affection, every desire, every thought, in obedience to the will of God: That he should continue holy, as he which had created him was holy, both in heart, and in all manner of conversation: That he should be pure in heart, even as God is pure; perfect as his Father in heaven was perfect: That he should love the Lord his God with all his heart, with all his soul, with all his mind, and with all his strength; that he should love every soul which God had made, even as God had loved him: That by this universal benevolence, he should dwell in God, (who is love,) and God in him: That he should serve the Lord his God with all his strength, and in all things singly aim at his glory.
3. These were the things which the righteousness of the law required, that he who did them might live thereby. But it farther required, that this entire obedience to God, this inward and outward holiness, this conformity both of heart and life to his will, should be perfect in degree. No abatement, no allowance could possibly be made, for falling short in any degree, as to any jot or tittle, either of the outward or the inward law. If every commandment, relating to outward things, was obeyed, yet that was not sufficient unless every one was obeyed with all the strength, in the highest measure, and most perfect manner. Nor did it answer the demand of this covenant, to love God with every power and faculty, unless he were loved with the full capacity of each, with the whole possibility of the soul. [186]".,"
4. One thing more was indispensably required by the righteousness of the law, namely, that this universal obedience, this perfect holiness both of heart and life, should be perfectly uninterrupted also, should continue without any intermission, from the moment wherein God created man, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, until the days of his trial should be ended, and he should be confirmed in life everlasting.
That’s why trying to be saved by the law of works is so silly. That was only for Adam. We just can’t do it. And so we don’t have to. We live under the law of grace.
11. What is the difference then between the "righteousness which is of the law," and the "righteousness which is of faith ? -- between the first covenant, or the covenant of works, and the second, the covenant of grace? The essential, unchangeable difference is this:
The one supposes him to whom it is given to be already holy and happy, created in the image and enjoying the favor of God; and prescribes the condition whereon he may continue therein, in love and joy, life and immortality:
The other supposes him to whom it is given to be now unholy and unhappy, fallen short of the glorious image of God, having the wrath of God abiding on him, and hastening, through sin, whereby his soul is dead, to bodily death, and death everlasting; and to man in this state it prescribes the condition whereon he may regain the pearl he has lost, may recover the favor and image of God, may retrieve the life of God in his soul, and be restored to the knowledge and the love of God, which is the beginning of life eternal.
12. Again: The covenant of works, in order to man's continuance in the favor of God, in his knowledge and love, in holiness and happiness, required of perfect man a perfect and uninterrupted obedience to every point of the law of God.
Whereas, the covenant of grace, in order to man's recovery of the favor and the life of God, requires only faith; living faith in Him who, through God, justifies him that obeyed not.
13. Yet, again: The covenant of works required of Adam and all his children, to pay the price themselves, in consideration of which they were to receive all the future blessings of God.
But, in the covenant of grace, seeing we have nothing to pay, God "frankly forgives us all:" Provided only, that we believe in Him who hath paid the price for us; who hath given himself a "Propitiation for our sins, for the sins of the whole world."
That is some great theology! If you understand what Wesley (my man!) was saying, Alma 5, especially the parts we covered, becomes clear.
We should not expect (imagine, ays Alma) to hear, "Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth".
We should long to hear Doctrine and Covenants 45
4. ...Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.
There it is. That’s the Gospel I believe. I think that is what is written in “ the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them”. (Doctrine and Covenants 84:57)
That’s what I got out of my studies this morning!
Now that would be a great Sacrament talk!!