Aurora 1

*In sincerity and gratitude* Your work a seminary and institute teacher was invaluable. Even though you can’t see your full impact now, I promise you that some day you will, and you will realize that that work you did rippled through generations. Teach a child, and they will grow up to teach nations.

Thank you for doing that work. Thank you for speaking truth. Thank you for your zealousness about the Book of Mormon. We need more voices who will stand for truth. More voices who are open minded even while they are bold in holding to the iron rod. Our youth especially need that. Thank you ??

You said, “What if the only spiritual gift from God given to Joseph Smith were to translate the Book of Mormon? What if any further gift he claimed was pretense?”

Very interesting line of reasoning indeed. I have never heard this theory before *looks in amused contemplation* at the very least, thank you for bringing me a novel idea.

*earnest curiosity* Tell me, if this is true, where do you go for companionship in your worship? If you believe the Book of Mormon is true, is there another church you attend? Or do you solely worship alone? How do you feel about the temple? How do you feel about temple covenants?

*Reads the remainder of your argument with a mixture of feeling bemused and impressed by your argument*

The scriptures you’ve included are quite convincing. I must admit. *chuckles*

You quoted Brigham Young as having said “when compared with [living prophets] those books are nothing to me".

I understand both your angle and Brigham’s angle and both are correct in my opinion.

Brigham was saying that the letter of the law often needs to change for the time. He was saying that the commandments as written are not always what the people need. Unlike the Israelites we don’t need to be prohibited from mixing fabric or perhaps from eating bacon. But there were good reasons for those laws in their day. But in ours, those prohibitions would be a hindrance rather than a help. Different times and peoples need different things, and as new information and ways of doing things become available we must adapt. I’m specifically looking forward to new moral guidelines being created by the church surrounding the advent of technology. That will be exciting to see. And it will be something no other dispensation has had to deal with. It already is.

However, you are also correct. To take the word of a man just because he said it is folly. If I said that I held the scriptures, the words of men long dead, over the words of the living prophets, then this would mean that I would be unable to pivot when necessary. That the church as a group would be unable to pivot. But it would also be idiocy to accept everything someone says just because they’re in a position of power and claim to speak to God.

The scriptures, those words of men long dead, they are the keepers of the spirit of the law. Their collected perspectives paint a clearer picture than any one man could provide. And so in the spirit of the law, yes, you’re correct, I would take their collected interpretations over the interpretations of one man. Even if he’s the living prophet. I also would agree that the spirit of the law is higher than the letter of the law. Which I believe is the point you were making?

*reads further until I finish. Takes a while to contemplate in silence then glances over at you.*

Well. We agree on this: The Book of Mormon and the Bible are both true.

I read your scriptures from the Book of Commandments and the later D&C. To be honest, I’m not married to the idea that the first thing written must be correct. As a writer myself, I know how many revisions I must write to accurately portray my meaning. And often times I must edit. And often times I edit after publishing. And this happens whether I’m writing about a vision I had or I’m writing about something more simple, like the way the leaves fell off a tree. People don’t always communicate things properly the first time.

Even so, I can see why you’re convinced of what you are. I can see that having written and published what they did in the first place causes it to look like they were attempting to cover it up later on. And I can see that it looks like the text itself even warns against this! I can see the conclusions you drew and how you drew them.

I have no flaw in your immediate argument. It is well laid.

My problem exists outside your immediate argument.

The argument I pose is that If the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph was a prophet. They must both be true together or false together.

The reason I say this is in large part because Joseph being a prophet is written IN the Book of Mormon itself. So the way I see it, we can say Joseph just made it up. He wrote the whole thing himself, the dude was crazy and we can be on our way. But if he didn’t write it himself, if the book is true, and these ancient people truly prophesied of Joseph… then Joseph must be a prophet. Because the Book of Mormon literally says he is.

You referenced 2 Nephi 3:12. If we read just a little above and below that verse, we see that the Book of Mormon itself calls Joseph a prophet in that same chapter.

To give you some context before we begin reading, Lehi is about to die and he’s talking to his son who is named Joseph. And he starts out talking to his son Joseph about the Joseph in the Bible. But then he turns to talking about our day, and says that there will be another Joseph who wasn’t born yet, who clearly matches the description of Joseph Smith, who will be “a choice seer like unto Moses”. So. Three Josephs: Lehi’s son, Bible Joseph, and Joseph Smith.

2 Nephi 3:3-16

3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed.

4 For behold, thou art the fruit of my loins; and I am a descendant of Joseph who was carried captive into Egypt. And great were the covenants of the Lord which he made unto Joseph.

5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom.

6 For Joseph truly testified, saying: A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

7 Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.

8 And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him. And I will make him great in mine eyes; for he shall do my work.

9 And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel.

10 And Moses will I raise up, to deliver thy people out of the land of Egypt.

11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

13 And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.

14 And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise, which I have obtained of the Lord, of the fruit of my loins, shall be fulfilled. Behold, I am sure of the fulfilling of this promise;

15 And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father. And he shall be like unto me; for the thing, which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand, by the power of the Lord shall bring my people unto salvation.

16 Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever.

Verses 11–15 are talking about Joseph Smith,

In verse 12 it says “the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write” I believe we’re agreed that this is referring to the Bible and the Book of Mormon? And then it goes on to say “that seer [the seer who brought the Bible and the Book of Mormon together] will the Lord bless” […] “And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father.” Meaning the seer’s name is Joseph and his father’s name is Joseph. Joseph Smith’s father was called Joseph Smith Senior.

The Book of Mormon says Joseph Smith is a seer which is the highest spiritual gift one can have. Both must be true together or false together.

Edit: *looks at you with a tinge of confusion and genuine compassion, but still maintaining a no nonsense attitude* What is this really about Ray? I have a feeling this goes beyond a couple poorly written verses in the Book of Commandments. What are you avoiding and why? What’s your hang up about Joseph being a prophet? What did he or other leadership say that you don’t like? *expression softens slightly* You can always DM me if you don’t want to talk about it in public ?? I’m here for you man. Hoping you pull through.