Baptism for Dead
Michael Wayne Box
·
Is baptism required for ALL of God's children?
A) No? Then why bother with it at all? Why did Christ do something that set a useless, silly example of an act that has no efficacy or impact? How does that make any sense?
B) Yes? Then how can God be just in requiring an ordinance that the vast majority of his children had no opportunity to be obedient to?
Unless there is a solution to this contradiction? Proxy baptism for and in behalf of the dead is the solution. Only one doctrine, one faith community, one church provides that solution. Only one church on the planet treats their beloved dead as so real to us that we do stuff for them. We build beautiful buildings. We do geneological research. We collect and record their stories. We live our lives with extra care in order to counted worthy to take that research into those buildings and perform saving ordinances for and in behalf of these very real but merely dead people whom we love.
We can, so how could we not.
Gary's Response
Before I add my observations
People. Can you just not use “Mormon”? You must have seen how it brings out the worse in members. Everyone has to make the obligatory explanation how repulsive and satanic the designation is before they actually (if they ever do) answer your question. Just humor them. Please.
Just don’t use the name of the Lord in vain, however.
I tend to use the Church of J___ C___ of Latter day Saints or LDSaints. If that isn’t friendly enough, too bad.
You can keep in mind that there is a call for the respect of the Name of the Supreme Being even in LDS scriptures
Doctrine and Covenants 107:4
…But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being,…avoid the too frequent repetition of his name.
I know they want everyone in the world, no matter how filthy the lips that speak it, to constantly repeat that sacred Name every time they refer to the Church, but you will find that the practice of avoiding such use is supported by the Doctrine and Covenants.
I suggest that if you are not cringed by the abuse of the Lords Holy Name, you need to check your own spirituality.
Baptism and ALL of God's Children
Brother Box asks "Is baptism required for ALL of God's children?"
He seems to think that the answer can't be in the negative. This is what I will address. Before I do, I will note that I follow him and his answers are always worth pondering.
The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that those "without the Law" do not need to be baptized. That is, those who die in their ignorance of God's will toward them are covered by the atonement and redemption comes upon them. On them, baptism avails nothing. Therefore, if they never heard of baptism and so don't get baptized they are covered. This makes sense. Repentance can only be accomplished by those who under the condemnation of a broken law. Those without the law can not have broken a law they didn't know about. So they can't repent. But baptism is the firstfruits of repentance. So repentance must come before baptism.
I am not making this up. I am paraphrasing Mormon in Moroni 8:
22. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing--
|23. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25. And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26. And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
So when David says “We don’t baptize ancestors; we baptize each other in behalf of our ancestors who never had the chance”, we discern the error. If they never had the chance, they don’t need baptism.
The Chapter I refer to is mostly about little children but, as you can see, the principle is applicable to those "without the law".
Lets see if we can apply the other portions of the chapter to those without the law.
8. Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children [and those without the law] are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin;
We can see that those without the law are not capable of committing sin. You have to have knowledge of the law to sin against it.
Alma 42:21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
Mormon thought this doctrine of baptism being necessary for those who are without the law is a gross error.
6. And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you;
Worse, he called it a solemn mockery before God.
9. And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children [and those without the law].
Again, he addresses accountability.
10. Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach--repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin;
But as we have shown above, only those who know the law are capable of breaking the law.
11. And their little children [and those without the law] need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
Jake wonders “Why don't people of other faiths, particularly ones who believe in Hell, do anything to try and save their ancestors who didn't get a fair shot at believing?”
Mormon answers why a Christian wouldn’t even consider the idea.
12. But little children [and those without the law] are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children [and those without the law] have died without baptism!
13. Wherefore, if little children [and those without the law] could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14. Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children [and those without the law] need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15. For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child [and those without the law] because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16. Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent.
Jake further inquires “Or do they instead believe that because they had no opportunity to learn the gospel and repent, that they are covered by God's mercy…?
Mormon would say, “Yes, Jake. That is what we wrote to you and speak to you as from the dust. Have you not read the words of Jacob?”
25. Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.
26. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.
Back to Mormon 8
19. Little children [and those without the law] cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20. And he that saith that little children [and those without the law] need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21. Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
Significantly, as is the habit of God, He pokes at LDSaints and calls baptism for those who died without the law "dead works". LDSaints call it "work for the dead".
So ,if you made it down this far, I see in the Book of Mormon that not all needs to be baptized and that proxy baptism for those without the law is a solemn Mockery before God.
Brother Box declares “Only one church on the planet treats their beloved dead as so real to us that we do stuff for them. We build beautiful buildings. We do genealogical research. We collect and record their stories. We live our lives with extra care in order to counted worthy to take that research into those buildings and perform saving ordinances for and in behalf of these very real but merely dead people whom we love”.
I have never seen such a comprehensive summary of the time, effort and billions of dollars spent doing “work” that does not need to be done. This is the the real spiritual crime and condemnation. There are so many of God’s children still in the flesh that could use some of the help currently and enthusiastically diverted toward this gross error.
I passed over other aspects of this topic for brevity’s sake. I will edit and continue if there is interest.
I look forward to get your comments telling me where I am wrong.
Notes
Jake says “This bridge is that final judgement comes only after the resurrection”. I always wondered why can’t those converted in the spirit prison couldn’t be baptized for themselves once they have a resurrected body. That makes more sense to me