Brad 00

Brad 00

I could write quite a essay in response to your tome. But I have to say that you raise interesting points, but you don’t address them completely.

I will discuss just a couple of things.

As to the Ammonites, That is not addressing ia religion, or denomination, or the name of the Church. That’s like saying Americans, Canadians, or British. It’s the ethnicity and the group they came from. They were all members of the Church of Christ. That is very clear in the Book of Mormon.

As far as who are the children of Christ? You quote correctly, but you reach the wrong conclusion. Yes, those who accept Jesus Christ and his atonement do become His children. That’s why Christ is both the Father and the Son. He is God the Father, but the Father and the Son as to our salvation AND our exaltation.

But, Jesus Christ redeems all mankind. First of all, he redeems us all from the grave. All mankind, whether they want to or not, are going to be resurrected. We are redeemed from the grave through the atonement of Jesus Christ. We also attain exaltation through the atonement of Jesus Christ but everyone in every degree of exaltation, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial, are redeemed by Jesus Christ. Don’t believe me? Look at section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

So we need to get back to the basics. Those basics are that Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind. He died for everyone’s sins and will redeem everyone in some degree of Glory. But he is also the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the father but through him. Where is the Father? In the celestial kingdom.

Volumes have been written on the atonement of Jesus Christ. Most of the information comes from the Book of Mormon, as it talks about the atonement of Christ much more than the Bible. This post does not do justice to the majesty of the Atonement of the Savior. I hope I’ve clarified things a little bit.

it is important for all to know that we do not worship Mormon. Mormon was an ancient prophet. We are not Mormons. We are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and we are Latter-day Saints. We should be addressed as such, especially by members of the Church since they should be heeding the words of the Prophet.

Ray Farmer
· Just now

SAYS YOU: "you raise interesting points, but you don’t address them completely"

ME: I agree. I am afraid I sacrificed completeness for brevity.

SAYS YOU: "As to the Ammonites, That is not addressing ia religion, or denomination, or the name of the Church. .... They were all members of the Church of Christ."

ME: But what is the church? Bro. M.Hick suggested I read the Doctrine and Covenants and I did. I discovered the definition of the church.

Doctrine and Covenants 10

67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

There are members of Christ's Church all over the world and in all denominations. Some are Lutherans, some are Baptists, some are Latter-day Saints, some are Wesleyan. Most have particular "names", but they are saints of the Church of the Lamb. They are whosoever repenteth and cometh unto Jesus. I am sure you know people who belong to other religious organizations yet belong to this Church of Christ. I know that you think there is more required to belong to Christ's Church, but the D&C warns him who declares more or less than this.

SAYS YOU: "But, Jesus Christ redeems all mankind. First of all, he redeems us all from the grave."

ME: Rightly said.

SAYS YOU: "We also attain exaltation through the atonement of Jesus Christ but everyone in every degree of exaltation, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial, are redeemed by Jesus Christ. "

ME: Here is where the doctrine of the Church contradicts the Book of Mormon, beginning to end. Read carefully:

Alma 11

40. And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
41. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, EXCEPT IT BE THE LOOSING OF THE BANDS OF DEATH; FOR BEHOLD, THE DAY COMETH THAT ALL SHALL RISE FROM THE DEAD and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

In other words, He redeems HIS PEOPLE, whom I describe in the earlier comment. He takes on THEIR transgressions. Everyone is resurrected, but only His people, those who believe on his name shall be fully redeemed, receive salvation and have eternal life after their resurrection. All others will stand before the Judgement Bar as if no redemption has been made in their resurrected bodies. That is the only kind of redemption they experience. There is no glorification of these. There is no kingdom for these. There is no incomprehensible joy for these.

Now, you point me to Section 76. I believe that section is the root of all the folly in the Church. That section contradicts the standard works, even all.

A. Doctrine and Covenants 29

26. ....Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth--yea, even all.
27. And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28. Wherefore I will say unto them--Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
29. And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power.
30. But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; and as the words have gone forth out of my mouth even so shall they be fulfilled...

There is a right hand and a left. No degrees here.

B. Pearl of Great Price

Moses 7:1 AND it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.

C. Bible

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

D. Book of Mormon

There is no stronger argument against the LDS interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15 than Alma 41:2-7:

2. .... it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.
3. And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4. And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--
5. The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.
6. And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7. These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

Don't you see that giving to unrepentant murderers, cheats, enemies of God and adulterers, who die in their sins, a place in the kingdom of God and to be “happy beyond anything we can comprehend” is contrary to "if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil"? Alma asks you

10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

Wicked people on earth are in a state of nature. They are in the gall of bitterness. They will not be restored to happiness in the Kingdom of God.

11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Mormon 9:14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

All who persist in their fallen state and die in their sins will experience endless damnation. Sorry. That's what it says:

Mosiah 16

4. Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.
5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
6. And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.
7. And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.
8. But there is a resurrection, therefore the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.
9. He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death.
10. Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil--
11. If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation--
12. Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

Section 76 and all the foolish doctrines that have been built on that sandy foundation must be abandoned.

SAYS YOU: "Where is the Father? In the celestial kingdom."

ME: All “celestial kingdom” means is “heavenly kingdom”, or, as we would say, “Kingdom of Heaven”. That's what celestial means! Up there as opposed to down here. Heavenly = Celestial, Earthly = Terrestrial. God lives up there ^.

Alma 18

30. And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.
31. And king Lamoni said: Is it above the earth?
32. And Ammon said: Yea....

Celestial is up there ^. It is above those things terrestrial, things down here. That is why Paul in 1 Corinthians mentions only celestial and terrestrial; heavenly incorruptable bodies and earthly corruptible mortal bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Paul has no conception of "telestial".

Agh. This has gotten too long. You probably didn’t get down this far.

I just want you to know that the Book of Mormon has, when combined with the Bible, the fulness of the gospel.

Continues

Brad Leeser

With all due respect, there’s no contradiction. You’re just reading with blinders on. You have to read the Scriptures as a whole, not pick them apart. You’re good at picking them apart. But you’re also very good at missing the points that are being made.

What I said was absolutely, 100% correct and there’s no contradiction among the Scriptures. They are all in harmony

Ray Farmer

SAYS YOU: "You have to read the Scriptures as a whole, not pick them apart."

ME: Sorry. I was gonna leave this discussion as it was, but this line stuck in my mind all morning.

I can't cite every scripture that counters the LDS "everyone will be saved" because the whole cannon of scripture contradicts this concept. My citations would comprise the scriptures....all the standard works. I only cited one verse out of each above. There are many more.

You, on the other hand, have your section 76 and perhaps 137 and 138. Those "scriptures" stand alone. One has to toss all other scriptures to hang on to those few. I am not willing to do that. You seem willing.

Let me just end this with a conversation from the Book of Mormon.

Aaron, the missionary, goes into a town where the doctrine of Nehor is taught and believed. You remember that Nehor "....testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life." (Alma 1:4)

When Aaron preached "repent or perish" ('Thou also sayest, except we repent we shall perish' Alma 21:6). But because the people in town believed everyone would be saved, they saw no need for repentance ('they were of the profession of Nehor, and did not believe in the repentance of their sins' Alma 15:15)

Oddly, the line from a talk by Oaks starts out "although we are urged not to procrastinate our repentance during mortality, we are taught...." Trust in the Lord, President Dallin H. Oaks.

Urged?! Urged?! Aaron taught "except we repent we shall perish"!

Then the fellow with which Aaron was speaking, drops the line "We do believe that God will save all men".

Where Aaron goes next is, perhaps, the most important verse you will read this week. Aaron counters the "all men saved" doctrine with:

Alma 21:7. Now Aaron said unto him: Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?

The whole "all men saved" doctrine is crushed by that one question: Believest thou that the Son of God? That is because the Son of God's whole mission was to "redeem mankind FROM their sins". He was not to save them IN their sins.

Alma 11

34. And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
36. ....I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
37. And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
40. And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
41. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death;

Aaron's question, "Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins", is the confounding of the "all men saved" false doctrine. That's because if all are saved, than most will be saved in their sins. This cannot be. If they die in their sins, they remain in their sins.

1 Nephi 15

32. .... the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.
33. Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34. But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
35. And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
36. Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.

If they procrastinate their repentance until they die, they die IN their sins. They don't go to a wonderful glorious kingdom. That would make the kingdom filthy. No, they go to "a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell".

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Alma 11:37. And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins;

LDS doctrine as being emphasized these days, comes frightfully close to the doctrine of Nehor. Do you think you have the Book of Mormon because it is wisdom in God that you received it, to warn you against the doctrine of Nehor that you see rising in the Church?

One last thing, I promise

Don't you find this paragraph regarding hell shocking?:

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a place in the postmortal spirit world for those who have “died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:32). This is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85). (True to the Faith)

Do you really believe that those rebels who reject Christ and the Gospel in mortal life AND reject it even when taught in the spirit prison will be resurrected to a telestial glory?

How can this be? You believe (I assume) that those in the Telestial Kingdom will not have the presence of the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit the Holy Ghost. The HOLY Ghost. You know. A member of the Godhead? A holy being?

Moromn 9:3. ....Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?
4. Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

So much for a glorious time in the presence of the HOLY Ghost! Besides all this, The Book of Mormon specifically says that the Spirit of God is withdrawn from those who die in their sins.

Alma 34:35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

Fine. You think I should look at the scriptures as a whole. I have taken you far and wide in the scriptures to show that the ideas I am sharing are ubiquitous. I could add more and more. However, if the above isn't convincing, than 50 more citations will not convince.

Cling to the doctrine of Nehor if that is your thing. You won't be alone since the doctrine is pleasing to the carnal mind. But know that there is no scriptural basis for it and plenty of warnings against it. If you didn't have sections 76, 137, and 138 there would be only scriptures that condemn the universalist doctrine of Nehor and the Church. As pointed out above, all four of your standard works confound this doctrine.

continue further

Brad Leeser

You can copy quotes very well, but your understanding is limited. Latter-day Saints are not Universalist. We don’t believe in universal salvation. But we do believe in universal salvation. That’s not a contradiction, but one has to define the words. You never do that.

Almost everyone will be saved from the power of Satan into a degree of glory. Therefore everyone will be saved. But unless you’re saved in the celestial kingdom of God, and enjoy exaltation and eternal life, you are damned.

You never differentiate. You don’t define your terms. Anyone can tear any religion down. Any idiot can do that. But it takes understanding and wisdom and study to appreciate any belief system. I don’t see that in you.
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Brad Leeser
· 40m

I should note, and I should’ve caught on earlier, but Mr. Farmer has done a very typical anti-Mormon “bait and switch“. The topic here is casinos in Las Vegas. He’s gone off on a tangent, and I have been suckered into following him. Therefore, this conversation ends here. If he wants to show his lack of understanding, but his many quotes, he may do so on another thread.

Ray Farmer

SAYS YOU: "But unless you’re saved in the celestial kingdom of God, and enjoy exaltation and eternal life, you are damned. You never differentiate. You don’t define your terms. "

ME: The Book of Mormon always defines its terms. That is what makes it plain and precious.

So lets see if your definition of damnation is consistant with the definition given in the Book of Mormon.

SAYS YOU: "But unless you’re saved in the celestial kingdom of God, and enjoy exaltation and eternal life, you are damned"

ME: Lets say this is a correct definition. It means that everyone in the Terrestrial and Telestial and outer darkness is damned. But if we look at the Book of Mormon definition and try to make your definition fit, we get something really bizarre.

Book of Mormon Definition of Damnation

Mosiah 16:11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation--

So, trying to make both definitions fit, we have to conclude that satan is not cast out into hell with his angels, but he is there in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, subjecting the saved, glorified beings there! So one can be glorified and yet be delivered up to the devil!!! That doesn’t seem right.

Or another way to put the pieces together is to conclude that hell is everywhere that is not the highest neighborhood of the celestial kingdom. But that would mean that the other two neighborhoods in the celestial kingdom and all the kingdoms below are inhabited by those who have been delivered up to the devil and are subjected to him!

SAYS YOU: "We don’t believe in universal salvation. But we do believe in universal salvation. That’s not a contradiction, but one has to define the words. You never do that."

ME: I let the Book of Mormon define the words it uses. This is just another demonstration how LDSaints have to redefine words in various verses and teachings to make them fit to preconceived, inconsistent doctrine. Saved, Heaven, Hell, Salvation, Kingdom, etc must and will be defined as necessary. This is more like the Great and Abominable Church that takes the plain and precious parts of the gospel and makes them confusing and hard to understand. We can see how many stumble because of that. this is not the way the Word of God should be handled.

This is not how the Book of Mormon is written.

2 Nephi 25:20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err.

2 Nephi 25:28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand.

2 Nephi 31:3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

Mosiah 2:40 O, all ye old men, and also ye young men, and you little children who can understand my words, for I have spoken plainly unto you that ye might understand.

In summary, the words in the Book of Mormon mean what the simple usage demands.

Alma 13:20 Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

SAYS YOU: "...everyone will be saved. But unless you’re saved in the celestial kingdom of God, and enjoy exaltation and eternal life, you are damned."

ME: Thank you for this example of what I was talking about. The idea we are to accept is that we can be saved and damned at the same time. Great.

SAYS YOU: "You don’t define your terms"

ME: True. I let the Book of Mormon do the defining. What terms have I left undefined?

SAYS YOU: "But it takes understanding and wisdom and study to appreciate any belief system. I don’t see that in you."

ME: I know it is comforting to discount the person presenting an idea rather than tackling the issue. The latter can be somewhat emotional and disturbing. I get it. But I will ask you a question that I don't think you will answer here. Do you really not see that I know LDSaint doctrine? Do you think I could have constructed any of my views without knowing the LDSaint belief system? I was a missionary, Gospel Doctrine teacher, Seminary teacher, Institute Instructor, Elders quorum instructor and various other callings that require study and preparation. My current calling involves teaching! I watch every conference with my wife. We watch BYU Devotionals. I read the Liahona. Give me a break here. I further would assure you that there is "low hanging fruit" that I completely ignore on my way to the deeper, less interesting, conundrums. Do you really think I have not applied myself to understanding the Book of Mormon? I know it in detail.

SAYS YOU: "Mr. Farmer has done a very typical anti-Mormon “bait and switch“. The topic here is casinos in Las Vegas. He’s gone off on a tangent"

ME: You made me chuckle on this one!! First of all...ME? anti-Mormon? Anyway,the original question was "Does the Mormon Church own casinos in Las Vegas?" Of course your original comment included "We testify of the reality of the atonement of Jesus Christ in your behalf, my behalf and in behalf of every other person who has lived upon the earth". Didn't you do exactly what you are accusing me of? LOL. You don’t think you were tangential?

I will be honest. No one is going to follow a question on Casinos and Mormons and then discover this informative back and forth on how the LDSaint Church contradicts the Book of Mormon. I love discussing issues, as we have done, but I don't like making issues and debates so much out in the open. Out of respect for the Church I take these explorations "around the back".

Anyway, I don't expect you to respond. I just typed out this latest for any lurkers that have been or will follow us.

Until the next time...