Why are more and more Latter-day Saints (not "Mormons") disabling comments?

Ray Farmer

Perhaps the “cut and paste” answers that many LDSaints have been using for years are now seen to be inadequate and are full of holes. It must be irritating when someone comes along and exposes those weaknesses that rattle the comfortable answers used for so long. It is especially vexing when one has rested their testimonies on those pat answers which haven’t even been pondered nor reconsidered for decades.

One can either update and repair those paste-able answers and the testimonies thereon based or just disable comments. The later is easier. The former may lead to a spiritual crisis causing one to enter that uncomfortable state of “serious reflection and great uneasiness” that often ends in great spiritual growth and unspeakable wisdom.

Alan Brown

Or maybe, it is that there is little enlightenment to be had from continued harassment of us Mormons and our testimonies. When we have tenaciously defended hard earned and dearly wrested testimonies to no avail, what's the point of trying to continue to enlighten. All that is done for the vast majority of interactions is for our dear Church and our love of Jesus Christ and the gifts of the Holy Spirit received after many years of developing and refining our beliefs and testimonies of those beliefs, is constant assailation from minions of the adversary.

There is very little real exchange of original ideation by both sides. Especially for LDS AND HOW MANY WAYS can we say the same thing over and over again?

What we LDS experience more so than anything else is denigrating diatribe trying to shake our extremely precious testimony right out of our lives!

I have seen many precious souls lost to this “quest for truth” into this state of “serious reflection and great uneasiness” that often ends in great spiritual growth and unspeakable wisdom.

I repeat, how many times should we literally spend many hours creating carefully worded, prayerfully attended documents proffering our beloved faith in Jesus Christ and this Gospel when the persons we are engaged in conversation with is either deeply entrenched in their own reality and are trying to enlighten us into that state of serious reflection leading to their perception of unspeakable wisdom, or are just minions of the adversary trying to drag us down to to hell with the rest of the severely deluded.

Personally, I have a huge testimony of not only this Gospel, but of the trials and tribulations attendant with these last days we prophetically have been warned of by modern and ancient prophets.

As my “life units” duration are in the hands of Heavenly Father, yet at 70 years old, are obviously in much shorter supply than previously and as such, more valuable to me, I remain dedicated to sharing this restored Gospel that brought forth the Book of Mormon and restored the true Gospel as needed to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, but at some point more urgently felt these days, I feel as though I must cut my proffering of those life units.

That many of the elect will fall prey to the wiles of the adversary is foretold. No matter how much we may love a brother from another mother, if they remain recalcitrant with the blinders on created by the adversary, then tragically all one can do is continue to love and pray for that fallen soul but one needs to ultimately end the contention between sincere honest souls.

Regardless of how much we aver and proffer “our truths” the reality is, one day we all will pass through the veil and then our eyes and mind and hearts will know whom was correct.

I will always stand on the side of the truth that this Gospel is eternal and is meant to bring as many souls as possible unto Christ and as such it is the iron rod meant to lead us through the mists and past the great and spacious building filled with those mocking us. Sometimes what is necessary is to simply ignore those mocking us after we have partaken of the fruit of that tree, in order to cause us to fall away like they have. I completely get that they believe they are “now enlightened by great spiritual growth into unspeakable wisdom” that unfortunately is wisdom they uniquely have discerned. I, also know that this Gospel is meant to be easily found by all of our brothers and sisters that want to find it and do find it within the confines of the “Quad” set of scriptures prepared before the foundation of this restoration. Once we have that testimony established by hard work, on Gospel bedrock for a sound foundation to withstand the assailations of an adversary completely loosed and unrestrained by Heavenly Father in order to test our faith, our testimonies, our perfect dedication to being a disciple, then I pray to withstand the continued even increased efforts of the devil to take me to his hell and away from my Savior. Even if it is by the efforts of a sincere beloved fellow soul that has lost sight of the overall, overarching sight of and purpose of this Gospel meant to exude the pure love of Christ in the most charitable, accepting manner possible.

As citing scripture to support what I have just written would create a TL,DR document, I will leave this missive in the hands of those that may read it with one closing scripture.

Joshua 24:15

    … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

(italics added by me because this is a journey meant for an undivided “house”.)

Ray Farmer

Isn’t it wonderful to have the ability to reply and make comments! I feel no need to hide from any person or idea they wish to present.

A while ago, I realized that one cannot believe in the Book of Mormon AND the LDSaint Church. I came to Quora to invite the wonderful scholars here to tell me where I am wrong. That seemed like a good way to become wiser. What I have found out is that those scholars could not show me where I was wrong. Sure, they could TELL, declare and jabber on, sometimes at considerable length. But in the end their words would be nothing but restating church doctrine, unsubstantiated by scripture, and passionate testimony.

SAYS YOU: "I have seen many precious souls lost to this “quest for truth” into this state of “serious reflection and great uneasiness” that often ends in great spiritual growth and unspeakable wisdom."

ME: IF I were to read between the lines here, I think you are saying there are many LDSaints that have been led to really think about the truth then have, because of this, left the church. I perceive this gets down to the reason why comments are disabled. Reflection must be avoided or else LDSaints will become uneasy and leave the church. I get it.

As long as I do this Quora thing, I will always invite all to comment. Show me where I am wrong (don't just tell me I am wrong). Enlighten, harass, gainsay all you want. I consider it a blessing to have your input, positive or negative.

Finally

1 Nephi 16:3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

Alan Brown

A convenient, expected reply from a scriptoral master. Regardless, you remain focused on tearing down what many of us hold dear and know to be true from our own march through the scriptures, the accepted Quad, not Wesleyan doctrine which you find bolsters your arguments.

Let me ask you one question. How would you feel if I questioned the integrity of your marriage, your dedication to your family, the faithfulness of your wife? Would you be exceedingly upset and angry about that?

After you defended your wife's virtue and family's fidelity in earnest, how would you feel if I challenged you again on the same issues from a different tact? Angry? I expect so…

This is what you do to my belief in my testimony. It is every bit a marriage with Jesus Christ and a dedication to the family of Christian disciples across the globe.

Why do you not see this? Why is “truth” as you see it the only reality? Why do you not allow that there are other “editions” of the truth that the Gospel of Jesus Christ allows for as not everyone, actually few will be able to or desire to follow your path through life, especially as a Christian that loves Christianity as much as you do?

Despite there being pitiful, prideful Christians in ALL CHURCHES denigrating all other churches, you personally know we are told not to criticize other Churches or religions or belief systems.

Do you not know that your constant badgering the LDS Church causes intense discomfort if for NO OTHER REASON??

Despite, there being those Mormons of us, unafraid to discuss our testimonies, do you not see where incessant criticism and scripture thumping would not cause us to be uncomfortable?!?

You pride yourself in your legalese use of the scriptures and believe that is what makes Mormons uncomfortable such that we can possibly embrace your spiritual wisdom! It simply does not! When you realize it doesn't, you double down on scriptural laden discourses expecting that your discomfort you create is “bringing the truth” to the poor clueless Mormons.

Brother, you and your approach are is wrong, especially for us Mormons. You of all people, with your history in the Church MUST KNOW that you don't come across as a kind and loving mentor. You come across as a disgruntled ex-Mormon of which we see plenty of and what do they do? Try their hardest to tear down what we know to be the chosen vehicle of the restoration.

By their fruits ye shall know them. You know we are overall a good, dedicated people that do a lot of service for members and non-members especially during crises and natural disasters. How many other churches have Spearhead 18 wheelers with water tanks built under the carriages and send them out to disasters before the hurricane hits, etcetera.

Dang! The Church was in Europe as soon as the war was over with food and clothing! WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DESTROY ALL OF THE GOOD WORK THIS CHURCH DOES JUST TO SERVE YOUR LEGAL, SCRIPTURALLY SUPPORTED PERCEPTION OF REALITY THAT ONLY YOU, DISGRUNTLED MORMONS AND OTHER CHRISTIANS that weren't selected by God to lead the restoration of the Gospel that you now doubt?!?

You believe in the Book of Mormon but not the D&C or Pearl of Great Price. That truly amazes me, because you don't believe Joseph Smith Jr was a prophet yet you have worked out to your satisfaction that He received inspiration from God in order to translate the Book of Mormon but then he failed to retain his status as prophet. Your disdain for Brigham Young is legendary. Your belief that current apostles, prophets seers and revelators are leading “the people” astray is no secret. Despite all of the above mentioned good work we do, you would have us follow your lead like the Pied Piper!

Do I sound exasperated? DOH!

Do I feel like I am less of a Mormon/Christian than you are? No and I am tired of defending what I know to be true as revealed to me personally of God, not the Holy Spirit! 35 years ago, God proved His existence to me beyond any doubt and more completely than standing in front of me visually. That it was in this Church told me clearly what church was God's restored church and that all the ministrations and orchestrations of a completely loving Heavenly Father would design a Plan of Salvation that was eternal and had gone on before this earth and will go on after this earth, all of that was established with uttermost certainty by God, personally. I could go on, but I know it is to no avail.

Please forgive my testy testifying but your constant torment of a Church that God, Himself has shown me to be the only fully correct one and as such is near and dear to my heart must come to an end.

I have resisted blocking your efforts because I have come to love you so. But the frailty of aging and the testimony I have after 35 years in this Mormon religion will not be shaken. Because of my love and respect for you and your scriptural acumen you can easily influence me…I CAN'T LET THAT HAPPEN! It is not fair to me, it is not fair to my eternal mate of 35 years, it is not fair to my son that sees me as some kind of completely dedicated Christian centered and rooted on this Gospel's bedrock foundation. It is not fair to every single person that may have been influenced by me and especially the Holy Spirit.

I pray that you see that yours is not a pathway to enlightenment. It is a pathway to destruction.

Ray Farmer

SAYS YOU: "you remain focused on tearing down what many of us hold dear and know to be true from our own march through the scriptures"

ME: If everyone in the world had this attitude, all LDS missionary's work would cease. Isn't all missionary work an effort to change minds regarding the Gospel? Everyone would be concluding that all the LDS missionaries are doing constantly is tearing down beliefs that are sincerely held. Some folks even believe that they have spiritual testimonies of their church.

While reading your submission, I recalled to mind the number of Italians who told me as missionary,"My great-grandmother was Catholic, my grandmother was Catholic, my Mother was Catholic and so I will be Catholic". Many of them had had visions of the Madonna. Basically they were saying "I will not be persuaded even if your persuade me".

You seem to be in that very category.

SAYS YOU: "How would you feel if I questioned the integrity of your marriage, your dedication to your family, the faithfulness of your wife? Would you be exceedingly upset and angry about that?"

ME: I don't think that I have done any of this to you. I don't question the integrity of your relationship to your church, and I certainly don't doubt your dedication nor your faithfulness. However, if someone would question mine, I would not be angry nor upset. In fact, I would appreciate someone with the courage to question my shortfalls and I would, therefore, give them my undivided attention. After all, they might be right! And if they were not completely correct in their assessment, there might be some nugget of wisdom that I could accept and treasure. I stand open minded to all who would so approach and love them for their concern and bravery.

SAYS YOU: "After you defended your wife's virtue and family's fidelity in earnest, how would you feel if I challenged you again on the same issues from a different tact? Angry? I expect so…"

ME: That's what I would call persistence and perseverance. Do you think I gave up so easy as a missionary as to flee after the first semblance of resistance? What kind of missionary would I have been? Hence, I would be appreciative rather than angry. Besides, understanding how scriptures irritate some LDSaints and multiple citations may bring them to anger, I don’t cite all of the passages that could be put forth. I leave many in reserve to bring to bear as required during followup. This may seem like employing another angle.

SAYS YOU: "few will be able to or desire to follow your path through life"

ME: Have I every issued the call to "follow me"? I don't think I have ever done that in my life in any aspect, whether secular or spiritual.

SAYS YOU: "you personally know we are told not to criticize other Churches or religions or belief systems."

ME: Joseph Smith--History 1:19 "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

SAYS YOU: "do you not see where incessant criticism and scripture thumping would not cause us to be uncomfortable?"

ME: Spiritual progress take place when we are uncomfortable with our current state. While a missionary, I adhered to the First vision account where Joseph said he was seriously reflecting and greatly uneasy. I would make my investigators, therefore, uncomfortable and then gave them something to reflect upon. Nobody moved closer to Jesus unless they experienced these two.

SAYS YOU: "You pride yourself in..."

ME: I pride myself in nothing.

SAYS YOU: "use of the scriptures and believe that is what makes Mormons uncomfortable such that we can possibly embrace your spiritual wisdom!"

ME: *sigh*. I use scriptures extensively to assure honest readers that I am just passing on Book of Mormon wisdom. Nobody ever points out where my interpretations are incorrect. My observations either go untouched or I am informed that the Church has moved beyond the concept being examined - the “continuing restoration”, I guess it is called. Even though Joseph received the revelation in 1831 that the Lord had already sent the everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning, more and more covenants are being added and modified in this continuing restoration.

Doctrine and Covenants 49:9 Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

Doctrine and Covenants 27:5 ....Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

Doctrine and Covenants 84:57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments...

Ooops. Scriptures. Sorry. At least they are from the Doctrines and Covenants.

So, I do my best to document my "spiritual wisdom" citing the new covenant, the Book of Mormon and the former commandments. I use the Book of Mormon because I once believed that LDSaints believed the words therein. As you can see, I can teach Book of Mormon precepts from "the Quad". This seems to make LDSaints uncomfortable and angry, assuming you know what you are talking about.

SAYS YOU: "Brother, you and your approach are is wrong, especially for us Mormons."

ME: This I know, understanding that the LDSaints are not scripture based. But at least I can shake your blood from my garments by teaching from the scriptures that LDSaints testify, in tears, that they believe. What more can I do in my vineyard? Nothing more is expected of me.

SAYS YOU: "you don't come across as a kind and loving mentor."

ME: You brought to mind Lehi's words to Laman and Lemuel:

2 Nephi 1:25. …he [Nephi] hath sought the glory of God, and your own eternal welfare.
26. And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that he hath used sharpness; ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold, his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was in him; and that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly...

Although they judged Nephi wrongly, we see into the heart of Nephi.

2 Nephi 33:3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them;

None the less,

2 Nephi 4:13. ....Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael were angry with me because of the admonitions of the Lord.
14. For I, Nephi, was constrained to speak unto them, according to his word; for I had spoken many things unto them....For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heart pondereth them, and writeth them for the learning and the profit of my children.

Note: I am not making myself as some sort of new Nephi!

SAYS YOU: "You come across as a disgruntled ex-Mormon of which we see plenty of and what do they do?"

ME: How many disgruntled ex-mormons believe in and will take the time to quote important truths from the Book of Mormon for your benefit? How many disgruntled ex-mormons attend church every Sunday (when wife is well) and hold callings? Be careful how you judge, for with the same measure you use you will be judged!

SAYS YOU: "By their fruits ye shall know them. You know we are overall a good, dedicated people that do a lot of service for members and non-members especially during crises and natural disasters. How many other churches have...."

ME: I support the Salvation Army and the Shepherd's Purse who do wonderful things to help in crisis and natural disasters. Bless all who help. Thankfully, the LDSaints aren't the only ones!

SAYS YOU: "You believe in the Book of Mormon but not the D&C or Pearl of Great Price. That truly amazes me, because you don't believe Joseph Smith Jr was a prophet yet you have worked out to your satisfaction that He received inspiration from God in order to translate the Book of Mormon but then he failed to retain his status as prophet."

ME: He was never a prophet. He was, however, a translator of the Book of Mormon. When he claimed to be a prophet, he was claiming a gift he wasn't to receive.

Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 4, Page 10

2 And now, behold this shall you say unto him: -- I the Lord am God, and I have given these things [plates] unto my servant Joseph, and I have commanded him that he should stand as a witness of these things [see "these things" in "Moroni's Promise"], nevertheless I have caused him that he should enter into a covenant with me, that he should not show them except I command him and he has no power over them except I grant it unto him; and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.

SAYS YOU: "Your disdain for Brigham Young is legendary."

ME: I read the Journal of Discourses and enjoy, not disdain, them. You may be amazed to learn that I quoted Brigham Young to a cashier this very day! I think, however, the LDSaints disdain Brigham Young and regard the Journal of Discourses unfavorably. So, back on you!

SAYS YOU: "Your belief that current apostles, prophets seers and revelators are leading “the people” astray is no secret. "

ME: I have made my belief no secret. Be it known that I watch Conference twice a year, watch them in the BYU devotionals and participate in church when their words are the basis of the lesson. There are many good teachings to be heard.

SAYS YOU: "you would have us follow your lead like the Pied Piper!"

ME: What the heck?! I would be happy if you would just read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and follow Jesus.

SAYS YOU: "Do I feel like I am less of a Mormon/Christian than you are? No"

ME: Great! We shouldn't compare ourselves with any other arm of flesh.

SAYS YOU: "I am tired of defending what I know to be true"

ME: Not me. I never become weary in this endeavor, as you surmised.

SAYS YOU: "Heavenly Father would design a Plan of Salvation that was eternal and had gone on before this earth and will go on after this earth,"

ME: It is the in these points of that plan which LDSaints differ from the Book of Mormon and Bible and, in fact, their other standard works.

SAYS YOU: "I have resisted blocking your efforts"

ME: Block on. Some of the top LDSaint scholars on Quora have done so already. You shouldn't feel bad. I certainly won't hold it against you. but it reminds me of those who murdered Stephen. they, too, blocked their ears while in the act!

Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

I guess blocking on Quora is an interesting equivalent!

SAYS YOU: "your scriptural acumen you can easily influence me"

ME: It is no acumen on my part. I lay out the scriptures. They should influence. Look. The only influence I hope I have will be when you decide to read the Book of Mormon again. You won't be able to miss the verses I quoted and others that I didn't cite that show you how I have reached my conclusions. They will be right there under your eyes. You will see that Ol' Brother Farmer was faithful to the new covenant in his expositions.

SAYS YOU: "It is not fair to me, it is not fair to my eternal mate of 35 years, it is not fair to my son that sees me as some kind of completely dedicated Christian centered and rooted on this Gospel's bedrock foundation. It is not fair to every single person that may have been influenced by me and especially the Holy Spirit."

ME: I would not wish this on anyone. It was a very difficult thing for me when I had to conclude that the church was not what it claimed to be. I went on a mission and brought at least a score of people into the church. I was married in the temple and brought up my three children in the church. I taught the principles in Institute and Seminary, etc. I had to come to a very difficult decision. Would I accept what is obvious in the Book of Mormon or let my past cause me to reject what I knew was truth. Should I just shut up and avoid making Quormons uncomfortable or even angry? I couldn't do that no matter what cross I would have to carry.

So here I am "persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me" (Joseph Smith--History 1:28)