Great and Abominable

Oh boy. I know you, as a group, like your "personal, though well considered, opinions", especially those that pretend to be the truth spoken by the revelation at the time they were uttered, but I think your explanation of the Great and Abominable Church is a bunch of opinions not well considered. I know that missionary churches have to be tolerant to avoid persecution, but such worldly churches, lacking in the boldness required among the Holy Order of the Son of God, will be weighed in the balance and will be found wanting.

All your stumbling trying to ID the Great and Abominable is answered in one verse, uncited by you.

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

You say that the Church of the devil has nothing to do with "the various divisions and subdivisions of Protestant Christendom combined as such church; nor the Greek Catholic church; nor the Buddhist sects; nor the followers of Confucius; nor the followers of Mohammed; nor would I like to designate even the societies formed by deists and atheists".

If we were to allow this opinion, that all of those groups are various parts of the Church of the Lamb since they are not, according to you, the church of the devil! The angel was specific. You are either of the Church of the Lamb or the Church of the devil. Your way is broad that leads to destruction.

The Broad Way

13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets….”.

One of the ways explained by Jesus to identify false prophets is their insistence in preaching a wide, broad way, a loving plan that saves all. Your opinions here expand that way until it is not only broad, but exceedingly broad and wide. Oaks turns this completely on it its head by saying all are saved "except for so few they won't be considered here". Jesus says beware of those who preach this broad way. It doesn’t matter how “loving”. They are false prophets.

I repeat, "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth".

Your definition and opinion (for you promote it here) is too narrow. "Most likely, this 'church' is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. The only definition needed is the one that the angel supplied, "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God". Obviously, someone can be chaste and an iconoclast and still be a part of the whore inasmuch as they "belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God". This is so plain and precious one has to be so dedicated to a personal, though well considered, opinion that they are blinded to this plain and precious truth.

J.C Ryle definition of the world will also apply to the Church of the Devil.

....people who think only, or chiefly, of this world's things, and neglect the world to come,--the people who are always thinking more of earth than of heaven, more of time than of eternity, more of the body than of the soul, more of pleasing man than of pleasing God. It is of them and their ways, habits, customs, opinions, practices, tastes, aims, spirit, and tone, that I am speaking when I speak of "the world." This is the world from which Saint Paul tells us to "Come out and be separate."

JC ryle makes the distinction, which concords with the Book of Mormon and Bible, between the wheat (Church of the Lamb) and the Chaff (Church of the devil).

"Who are the wheat in the world?" This is a point which demands special consideration. The Wheat (I will exchange wheat for Saints of the Church of the Lamb).

The [Saints of the Church of the Lamb] means all men and women who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ,--all who are led by the Holy Spirit,--all who have felt themselves sinners, and fled for refuge to the salvation offered in the Gospel,--all who love the Lord Jesus and live to the Lord Jesus, and serve the Lord Jesus,--all who have taken Christ for their only confidence, and the scriptures for their only guide, and regard sin as their deadliest enemy, and look to heaven as their only home. All such, of every Church, name, nation, people, and tongue,--of every rank, station, condition, and degree,--all such are [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]"

Show me people of this kind anywhere, and I know what they are. I know not that they and I may agree in all particulars, but I see in them the handiwork of the King of kings, and I ask no more. I know not whence they came, and where they found their religion; but I know where they are going, and that is enough for me. They are the children of my Father in heaven. They are [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]"

All such, though sinful and vile, and unworthy in their own eyes, are the precious part of mankind. They are the sons and daughters of God the Father. They are the delight of God the Son. They are the habitation of God the Spirit. The Father beholds no iniquity in them:--they are the members of His dear Son's mystical body: in Him He sees them, and is well-pleased. The Lord Jesus discerns in them the fruit of His own travail and work upon the cross, and is well satisfied. The Holy Ghost regards them as spiritual temples which He Himself has reared, and rejoices over them. In a word, they are the [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]. (Practical Religion)

Who are the Chaff (I will exchange wheat for Church of the Devil)

The [church of the devil] means all men and women who have no saving faith in Christ, and no sanctification of the Spirit, whosoever they may be. Some of them perhaps are infidels, and some are formal Christians. Some are sneering Sadducees, and some self-righteous Pharisees. Some of them make a point of keeping up a kind of Sunday religion, and others are utterly careless of everything except their own pleasure and the world. But all alike, who have the two great marks already mentioned--"no faith and no sanctification",--all such are [church of the devil]. From Paine and Voltaire to the dead Churchman who can think of nothing but outward ceremonies,--from Julian and Porphyry to the unconverted admirer of sermons in the present day,--all, all are standing in one rank before God: all, all are of the [church of the devil]"

They bring no glory to God the Father. "They honour not the Son, and so do not honour the Father that sent Him." (John v. 23.) They neglect that mighty salvation which countless millions of angels admire. They disobey that Word which was graciously written for their learning. They listen not to the voice of Him who condescended to leave heaven and die for their sins. They pay no tribute of service and affection to Him who gave them "life, and breath, and all things." And therefore God takes no pleasure in them. He pities them, but He reckons them no better than [church of the devil].

Clearly, one can belong to an incorporated church and still not be saints of the church of the Lamb.

Alma 5:14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church [the incorporated church]--not into the church of God [the Church of the Lamb], but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God --

One can also belong to a corrupt church and yet be a follower of Christ.

2 Nephi 28:14 ...because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Again, the Church of the Lamb of God is not an incorporated organization. Neither is the Church of the devil. The Church of the Lamb, the Family of God filled with adopted sons and daughters of God, is the Body of Christ. They are found in all incorporated organizations. I bet you know members of other incorporated religious organizations that belong to this body of Christ. I bet you know members of your incorporated organization who are of the church of the devil.

As a side note, we see, because we all just "know in part", that despite sincerity, we are little more than "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine". We should not expect all to agree until Jesus brings forth Zion.

Mosiah 15:29 Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

However, those who are born again will be pretty close in agreement on the main, essential points of Christianity, unincorporated.

Alma 36:26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.

I guess that is why you place me among the Evangelicals. On the essentials we “see eye to eye”.

Considering the above, we can see why we are warned against those who claim their incorporated church is exclusively the Lord's.

2 Nephi 28:3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--

I suspect that you are a part of the Church of the Lamb of God. You, like me and other members of the Church of the Lamb, may be blinded by the craftyness of men.

Doctrine and Covenants 123:12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men....who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it".

This is unfortunate in your case because you, and few others, have been given the truth and you should know where to find it.

1 Nephi 13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles [Book of Mormon], shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [Bible], and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them...

Such as it is. You seem to look beyond what was written and so have pride in men, your Living Oracles.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (New International Version)

6 ....learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

It is taught that all sects, parties, and denominations may have “humble followers of Christ” among them. They are of the Church of the Lamb of God. It is taught that all sects, parties, and denominations have "tares", those who are the children of the wicked one, of his church.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

SAYS YOU: "I see the "great and abominable church " as those who fight against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

ME: As we can see, this is a frightfully narrow view.

SAYS YOU: "In as much as you are fighting against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you have made yourself part of that Great and Abominable Church. Is that a shock?"

ME: I am not fighting against the LDSaints. I am discussing doctrinal issues. You crack me up. But I am not shocked that you would say that I was a part of the Church of the devil. Not at all. In fact, I find it a joy to read that!

Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

SAYS YOU: "You are wrong to say Latter-day Saints, the Roman Catholic Church and the NAACP are part of the great and abominable church."

ME: As you can see, I don't believe what you assert. There may be saints of the Church of the Lamb among them.

Doctrine and Covenants 18:20 Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

I will not cozy up to organizations that preach doctrines of devils. Not even for a photo op.

SAYS YOU: "By rejecting that portion of God’s word found in the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as well as modern revelations to Latter-day Saint prophets, you have rejected that portion of God’s word that would help you stay on the covenant path"

ME: Of course I don't reject all of the precepts taught in those books. And you don't accept all of them, either. But we should compare any precept with what is taught in the Book of Mormon and Bible.

2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines....

A good reason to reject those books you cite, the reason I do and must, is because they have been altered as the years went on. You don't find that suspect, that God can say and then unsay, but that is reason enough for me. Didn't Joseph or God tell us what is the source of this idea that the Word of God can be altered in this manner?

Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.

The only safe course is to reject whole books that have been altered and then ponder any principle left in those books that could be true ideas when filtered through the sticks. I hate to say it, but one of my all time favorite set of verses is found in the....wait for it...the Doctrine and Covenants.

Doctrine and Covenants 45

3. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him--
4. Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.
6. Hearken, O ye people of my church, and ye elders listen together, and hear my voice while it is called today, and harden not your hearts;

Oaks would change it to read that Jesus says "Father, behold how these temple worthy members obeyed Celestial laws, that they may be glorified and exalted". And so ye elders of the church have hardened their hearts.

I will read and ponder your links by and by. My time was severely limited and I couldn't touch on many important considerations.

Happy Easter!