A Conversation
by Ray Farmer
Says You: Book of Mormon authors themselves also admitted their own susceptibility to err (1 Nephi 19:6; 2 Nephi 33:11; 3 Nephi 23:12-13; Mormon 8:12, 16-17; 9:31; Ether 12:23-25) and even the Book of Mormon title page admits, "if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God....” Mormons do not believe the Book of Mormon to be perfect or infallible...
Says Me: I think of three references to the documents under consideration. There is "the Book", the "words of the Book" and then the 19th century printing and publication of the Book of Mormon.
“The Book” refers to the plates Joseph Smith used to translate. The “Words of the Book” is the portion that Joseph Smith translated. And then there is the printed version first seen in 1830.
“The Book” we know is without error and is perfect and infallible doctrinally. We know this because Jesus actually asked to see the record and made only one correction, which was immediately remedied. All other doctrine was left as it was.
We know the “Words of the Book” are, like “the Book”, translated “by the Gift and Power of God”, perfect and infallible. Even the Book of Mormon in print is doctrinally perfect or infallible up until recently. People have added "or out of the waters of baptism" in 1 Nephi 20:1 and, probably out of fear changed "white" to "pure". Certainly nobody can go so far as saying "Much of what was recorded by those prophets was based on an Old Testament misunderstanding of God and his Son and ancient Israelite views of heaven, hell, and God’s plan of salvation". That would be declaring that “The Book”, the “Words of the Book” and the print edition are not correct, reliable or truthful.
Jacob 6
8. Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you? 9. Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God? 10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.
I looked up the verses you put forth to prove the mistakes found in the Book of Mormon. They really do not prove the doctrine is fallible. Lets look at your first reference (I added some important pieces that you left out)
1 Nephi 19:6-7
Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself. For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words--they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.
The error that Nephi feared was in making a selection of things to include. We see this when he declares "I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err....". We see his instruction to Jacob along these lines. Says Jocob, "Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven. And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history".
Somewhere you have pointed out, "teachings such as an understanding of the Spirit World, the pre-mortal existence of man, baptism by proxy for the dead, the unity of the Godhead, and many modern doctrines, are not discussed. Some see these as conflicting teachings, others see them as reflecting a more limited and incomplete view of the gospel in its fulness". Now we see that, if these were actual doctrines, for some reason the Prophets left them out. If these things were true and sacred, they would have been included. So the True Prophets say they will "not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred".
Strange to say, although Jacob left out “unique LDS doctrine”, he did think a couple chapters against multiple wives was, in his opinion, among the “few” sacred things he addressed in his limited space because that would be important to those who would carry the “Words of the Book” to church and on missionary exploits!
Jacob had two problems. The first was the difficulty the Nephite Prophets had in the physical act of engraving.
Jacob 4:1 I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates) and we know that the things which we write upon plates must remain;....we can write a few words upon plates...
This difficulty was, in fact, divine intervention. "And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands" (Ether 12:24). Simply put, it appears the Lord did not want to flood the world with a bunch of "other books". Rather, He put the fulness of the Gospel into two reletively short books that, with small effort and cost, can be mastered by anyone. The point is that the Prophets were concerned that they would leave something out or put in useless information. Hence they expressed their unfounded trepidation.
Another problem the Prophets faced was the limited space on the plates.
Jarom 1:2 And as these plates are small....wherefore, it must needs be that I write a little;
In 1 Nephi 8:30 Nephi says, "But, to be short in writing,...." but goes on to assure us in 1 Nephi 14:30....if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen". Furthermore, we are told in 2 Nephi 2:27 "....men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man" despite necessary brevity.
Eventually they completely ran out of space on the available ore.
Omni 1:30 ....these plates are full. And I make an end of my speaking.
Related to the limited space that plates provided, the Prophets who were powerful in speech, were required, not only to scratch out their words, but had to use a language whose characters were less space intensive. This also concerned them.
Mormon 9:33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
I am sure had I been able to speak my native tongue in Italy on my mission I could have preached with better words, figures, metaphors, similes, local slang, idioms and more. Instead, my vocabulary was limited and I, nevertheless, got my message out however linguistically flawed. I am sure I mispronounced, conjugated verbs disastrously, and chose words that, although conveyed the meaning, were not quite right. For example, if I were talking about a dead body, I could call it a stiff or remains. Although both mean the same thing, only one would be appropriate when whispering kind words to a widow at graveside. Expressions can be less than perfect when expressing perfect doctrine. If I had someone there who could translate my teachings, like Joseph had the Gift and Power of God, this kind person would be able to give a better rendition of my true message. Certainly, translators don't translate word for word as spoken but adopt the translation to reflect intent.
Thus Nephi could confidently declare, "Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness" (Nephi 33:11). He knew "The words of the Book" would spring from the ground and that God Himself "shall bring this thing to light; for it shall be brought out of darkness unto light, according to the word of God; yea, it shall be brought out of the earth, and it shall shine forth out of darkness, and come unto the knowledge of the people; and it shall be done by the power of God”.
And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire" (Mormon 8:12, 16-7).
Finally, Mormon depicts the judgement where we will stand face to face with Mormon as the Great Judge says to you, "Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man". The Lord is referring to the "Words of the Book" printed in the Book of Mormon. We will also see Nephi at the Judgement seat. He says "ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness" Thus God, Nephi and Mormon will tell those who believe the Book of Mormon "as far as it is translated correctly" or that it is full of the “misunderstandings of Old Testament concepts”, "we know no fault".
Finally, do you think the Gift and Power of God would not correct all of these doctrinal errors and admissions in the translation process? Let us pretend that there are thousands upon thousands of errors written by the Nephite Prophets as they scratched away. Do you really think that the lines appearing to Joseph as he dictated to his scribes, that the Power of God would not make any corrections? Joseph, apparently, did not translate character by character but rather read the words as they divinely appeared line by line. Would God continuously say "Oh wow, that's messed up. Oh well. Let it stand as it is"?
No, this non-Mormon believes that the Book of Mormon is infallible as written. He also marvels whenever he has to defend the "Words of the Book" against all the attacks by those who wave it in everyone's face, declaring they "know it is true".
Says You: Gary, you’re trying to carry the Protestant belief in infallible scripture over to the Book of Mormon.
Says Me: I am broken hearted. My attempt was to show that the Book of Mormon teaches that "Protestant belief" of the infallibility of itself! That was the whole thesis! I addressed all the trepidations of the Nephite Prophets of being mistaken even though they confessed, "we know no fault". God declaring that He gave the words to these prophets confirms that the trepidation was without basis. I based my comment on the verses you cited and answered them in order. I have a feeling you didn't read what I wrote.
Says You: The restoration brought a more comprehensive understanding of God’s plan for His children.
Says Me: Sadly you have let go of the iron rod and are now wondering the strange roads in the mist of Darkness.
1 Nephi 8
22. And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree. 23. And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost. 24. And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron [Book of Mormon and Bible]; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
In 1986 Ezra Benson informed the Chruch that they were under the condemnation explained in Section 84. That is, all the "Children of Zion" are operating with darkened minds (think mist) because they treat lightly the Book of Mormon and Bible. What manner of "continuing restoration" can take place when the leaders and members are darkened in the mind? Well, as Lehi saw, such revelations of a darkened mind leads to wondering in strange roads.
Says You: The restoration brought a more comprehensive understanding of....life after death with degrees of glory (Moses....
Says Me: What the heck! The Book of Moses teaches,
Moses 7:1 .... many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.
"Continuing restoration" taught the same thing until it didn't.
Doctrine and Covenants 29
43. And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation--that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; 44. And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
Clearly taught is the idea that one believes in the day of probation, or one believes not. There is eternal life for those that do and eternal damnation for those that don't.
Says You: You have pointed out the fact that the Book of Mormon seems to teach one heaven and one hell.
Says Me: Yes. Oddly, your ubiquitous bubble chart doesn't even illustrate a “heaven” or “hell” even though you admit the fact that the Book of Mormon teaches the two. I wasn't going to get drawn into this discussion, being unrelated to the infallibility of the Book of Mormon, but I simply cannot help my self.
The "continuing development" called the restoration also teaches this. I am sure you believe that all God's children will either wind up in the Father's House or they will land in Outer Darkness. That is just two possible outcomes, which is consistent with the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The only difference between this LDS doctrine and the "Protestant view" is that the LDSaints place in the Father’s House the filthy, "those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior...they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus....they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” ( (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023) ). Oh boy. The Book of Mormon says, instead,
1 Nephi 15
33. Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also. 34. But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy. 35. And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
In fact, being guilty in the presence of that Holy Being, The Holy Ghost, in some inferior mansion in the Father's house would be more miserable than being cast out!
Mormon 9
3. ....Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? 4. Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.
Here, again, we see the two destinations: Dwelling with a Holy Being (at a minimum the Holy Ghost) or dwelling with the damned souls in hell. This message is consitant in the New Covenant, even the Book of Mormon and in the Book of the Lamb of God, the Bible.
I know you believe, "Much of what was recorded by those prophets was based on an Old Testament misunderstanding of God and his Son and ancient Israelite views of heaven, hell, and God’s plan of salvation", but if you believe the Book of Moses, you will believe that the idea that there are "the sons of God" and some who "believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them". Because the Book of Moses is supposedly telling about Adam, it predates your "Old Testament misunderstanding". Apparently the "Old Testament understanding of God and his Son and ancient Israelite views of heaven, hell, and God’s plan of salvation predate the Old Testament, originating in the Garden of Eden.
Moses 7:1 AND it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things....
You are commanded, by said Book of Moses, to teach the very things I am telling you and that you reject!
Moses 6:57-8
Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children,
You may not be one of my children, but I am doing my best to teach these very things that you should be teaching!
I delight to discuss these matters with you. Thanks for the opportunity.
Says You: before hitting reply and lost it
Says Me: Ha! That happens to me all the time! When it does, I spend more time contemplating if the loss was divine intervention than it did to compose what, up to that time, I thought brilliant. Was there something false? A misuse of scripture? was it true but too harsh?
Says You: The iron rod represents all of God’s word that includes the D&C, PofGP, and the words of modern prophets
Says Me: Ah! and where does this list end? Apostate Fathers? Journal of Discourses?
2 Nephi 29:12.... I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
Are these other nations such as England (Wesley) or perhaps Germany (Luther) or Switzerland (Zwingli) or, dare I say, Rome (St. Francise)? Fortunately, The Lord designates the two Books we need to consult is the Stick of Judah and the Stick of Joseph, that which comes from the loins of Lehi and that which sprung from the loins of Judah.
1 Nephi 13:40-1 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records [Book of Mormon], which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [Bible], and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed [Book of Mormon], as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb[Bible]; wherefore they both [Book of Mormon and Bible] shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
Ah well. Once one no longer clings to these two books they, well, wonder into the strange roads.
Ezekiel 37:18-9 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Every writing that claims to be the Word of God, the Iron Rod, must be tested by these two Books. If they speak not according to these there is no light in them. If they cannot hold up to the two-stick test, they are not a part of the Rod but will turn out only to be a Serpent.
As much as your "Other Books" are always being edited they could not be called an Iron Rod for they resemble more pipe cleaners that are bent this way and that way at the will of man.
Says You: I fear it’s you who as rejected all of God’s word except the BofM
Says Me: I receive words enthusiastically and then study daily if those things are true. I follow Paul's admonition (he wrote more than one, you know):
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
A good LDS application of the above is their selection of Hymns. Lots of Wesley (England) compositions as well as one by Martin Luther (Germany). You even have one from, dare I say, Rome written by Saint Francis! Another example is your own sifting through the mess that is the Apostolic Fathers and picking, as suits you, words that kinda sound like LDS doctrine and reject a whole lot of crazy stuff. I do the same, reading, contemplating and testing against the Two Sticks to see if what is before mine eyes was spoke by God as He inspired "all nations of the earth and they shall write it". Sadly, after decades of doing the same to your "other books" I had to let them go. But even if the words of “other nations” are true and wonderful, I don’t use them as I am commanded to use the Two Sticks.
Says You: Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 tells us: "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."
Says Me: I am beginning to think you don't love me, nay, respect my scholarship. You know, but think I don't, that Section 19 was addressed to Martin Harris. The counsel not to talk of things other than "repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost" was probably wise regarding poor Martin. But does it apply generally to all the Children of Zion even now? I go to www,LDS,org and find all kinds of tenets beyond those listed! Even on Mormon,org we read, "Test the power of scripture study in your life. Request a free copy of the Bible or Book of Mormon" along with many so called “tenants”. There is nothing there about requesting your "other books" nor recent Conference Issues. Certainly, next to Living Oracles, those two sticks mean nothing. Why offer books that are so passe when the latest Word of the Lord is so available?
Apparently "tenants" mean those conundrums that cannot be solved. LDSaints should stay away from those! Is that what you are attempting?
Says You: Hell is several places like Spirit Prison, Outer Darkness, and the Telestial glory. Heaven is likewise more than God’s Kingdom.
Says Me: But the Telestial (you call hell) glory is found in God's Kingdom. So hell is a mansion in Father's House? So the Kingdom of God houses those "who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior". Hell is "the kingdom where the wicked abide", “they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus", "they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie". You have got to see what a mess this is!
You rely on Section 138, but you fail to see that the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to were not the wicked, but rather,
12. .... the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; 13. And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. 14. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. 15. I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. 16. They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death. 17. Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. 18. While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; 19. And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
The Revelation emphasizes,
20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; 21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. 22. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;
So, it seems like your doctrine confuses Paradise (spirit prison) and post mortal/pre-resurrection hell (also spirit prison). The Book of Mormon makes a clear distinction,
Alma 40
11. Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection--Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. 12. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. 13. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil--for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house--and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. 14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
Again, a division into two groups. Very consistant in the Sticks. Of course, those in hell are in "a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them", Indicating that a school environment is unknown there and also indicating that their hell continues after the judgement, where all they can expect is, rather than glorification in happiness beyond comprehension, "the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them". And, clearly, there is not any moving over to Paradise for them after some sort of suffering to pay for their sins (blasphemy) because it specifically says "they remain in this state....until the time of their resurrection”.
What a conundrum!
Says You: Gary, if you want me to continue corresponding with you, you need to sound like I’ve convinced you of a few things once in a while.
Says Me: Now, now. Don't get that way. You did cause me to ponder on your last post. You made a very good point. "When Lehi’s dream was given, how much of the Book of Mormon existed? Repeat with me…NONE....the 'word of God' what was that?". What can I say? Well, I am not thinking of anything to say because that was a brilliant insight. Now, what made that effective is that you used the Book of Mormon to make your point. If you can get me against the ropes using the Bible and Book of Mormon, I am done. Fly to some other work and I must compare it with the teachings of the Book of Mormon and Bible and accept/reject on that basis.
As you know, in the mid nineties, while teaching Seminary, it began to occur on me that almost nothing notably LDS was in the Book of Mormon. For twenty years I struggled with seeming contradictions to the Book of Mormon. I did the faithful LDS thing with the "shelf" and soldiered on. But things began to pile up on that shelf and I felt I needed some real resolution. Going to my trusted priesthood leaders I was told simply to go home and pray about it. This was irritating! my whole life revolved around the Church. Did they really think I , in crisis mode, didn't pray about it? I wanted to show where in the scriptures my problems appeared, but they refused to open the books to take a look-see. Available helpers were limited because, you know, raising "doubts" is not a thing LDSaints like to see. At that point, additionally, I was Mr. Mormon known far and wide in the local stakes and I didn't want to put any of the faithful into a crisis they couldn't handle. Eventually, I quite my callings and decided to take something of a vow of silence.
Retiring in the mountains of Idaho I found I had some extra time to spend studying. I decided I would take a close look at the Book of Mormon and see what it actually taught. I figured I could actually chart the "Plan of Salvation" IF the Book was what it claimed for it would be consistent from cover to cover. I emptied my head (that was the easy part) of any pre-existing beliefs and approached my reading like someone who knew nothing about nothing, as if I was on a lonely isle when a Book floated to shore. That was a difficult task.
That took five years of intense study and graphing and correcting and editing as I found verses that disturbed my chart. So there I had a wonderful diagram. I could open to any random verse and place it comfortably on my diagram. But even with all that, I asked myself, was I still in error?
I heard of Quora. Poking around, I discovered you and others who seemed to be serious and knowledgeable scholars. "Here", thought I, "Here I can take my conclusions and present them to faithful LDSaints who will be able to shoot holes in my "Plan". I was sincere. I would present my view as clearly and, as you know, with a strong scriptural foundation full of references. I include the whole reference, rather than just a chapter and verse, so that I don't count on my friends taking the time to look them up.
I wasn't surprised at the reaction. I was called all kinds of unfriendly names and my eternal destiny was determined for me, and it wasn't nice. I was called a "hater" even though I don't hate anyone. I had great friends in the local ward and I served and did callings and all that. I was, in other words misjudged. But also, as I said, was not shocked nor dismayed.
I confess that I may have been aggressive in my early Quora years. I wanted to get right to the nut of the matter. As any rebuttal was shared, I considered it closely and referenced the Bible and Book of Mormon to "see if those things were so".
So here I am.
Admirably, most responses to my puzzles consist of members presenting what the Church believes. But I know what the Church teaches having taught Institute and Seminary and Gospel doctrine for years and years. I know what goes on in the Temple having been sealed there, etc. Unfortunately, all of my "Well, what about THIS" questions are rarely answered. But those are the answers I seek. In the end I have to assume that my conclusions hold up against the great scholars found here on Quora.
Most times I get no answers that resolve my puzzles. But I mistake. All non-answers are actually answers. They are confirmations.
For example, you didn't answer the above observation that according to Section 138 the righteous who died before Christ were the ones in Peter's Spirit prison.
You left unaddressed the problem with hell being a part of the Father's house.
You had no response to my lengthy explanation regarding the infallibility of the Book of Mormon and why the Book of Mormon prophets worried about their weakness and mistakes without warrant. They were mistaken when they feared they were mistaken!
To me, these avoidances are, indeed, answers. If my wife asks me what happened to the chocolate wafer cookies and I stand silent, she has her answer.
I suspect your time is limited and your patience with me is wanning, so your non-answers are inconclusive.
Every time I begin feeling this is a waste of time, I see you participating. Hurray! Another opportunity to present a difficulty to someone who actually wrote an excellent book seeking to answer difficult questions. I suppose that is why it seems I stalk you! But right when we are getting down to the heart of the matter, you say something like, "Please stop trying to be contrary".
Anyway.
-_--_-_Over night-_-_
Says You: Since the rod of iron referred to the “word of God” what was that?
Says Me: I thought about this constantly over night. This question crowded out my other thoughts. I resolved this question for myuself. Again,
2 Nephi 29:12.... I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
Certainly, Father speaks to all mankind, both Nations (political entities as a group), Kindreds (families), Tongues (cultures) and People (individuals) and He remembers the Heathen. He says He manifests Himself to all. Some of them take what they learn and write it down. Most do not. So now we have all kinds of writings. But most of them conflict and much of them agree. Our task is to sort out what is the Word of God and what are vain imaginations (Large and spcious building, floating without foundation). This is no easy task, and those who don't seek, knock nor ask will carelessly wonder aimlessly accepting whatever they are raised believing or what jumped in their carnal minds. I am highly blessed because when I was nineteen Father manifested to me that the Book of Mormon, among all these writings, was surely His word and that I could rely on it. I have been faithful, through ups and downs, highs and lows, in joys and in pains, to that manifestation. So, for me, the answer to "the “Word of God” what was that?" is anything that conforms to the Book of Mormon whatever the source, whatever nation, kindred, tongue or person. I had a highly spiritual experience in a lonely and distant chapel and the feeling that I felt in combination with the Book of Mormon is how I distinguish the Rod of Iron, the Word of God, from all the many voices abroad in the world.
You have a different touchstone. I really am fine with that. Everyone is trying to put together the pieces and the serious will come up with all kinds of different assemblies. May we all be faithful and true to the tentative puzzle we pieced together. I say tentative with the thought in mind that we should always be humble and therefore flexible, being fallen creatures with faulty brains, logic, observation and chemical imbalances. Hence the value of intense discussions on Quora.
Thanks for the time you gave me in the other comment. I will probe a little in reply to that gift attached to it. But for now, I would like to share my observations on the site you graciously pointed to. Let me start with,
2 Nephi 27:12 …three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.
Notice the Three Witnesses (and I will extend it to us who can testify) are to witness of two things. 1) The truthfulness of the Book and 2) the things therein.
The Shelf site does a great job testifying of the truth of the Book. You and I may read it and our testimony should be unaffected because we already know the Book came about just at it claims. Would your testimony of the Bible strenghten if they found the actual Ark of Noah? I think not because we already have a spiritual witness of the Bible and the things thierein. A testimony that is strenghtened by material rather than spiritual proof is a testimony that was built on sand to begin with. Hence, to read that Joseph couldn't pronounce "Sarah" or that he was surprised that Jerusalem had a wall will be amusing but those antidotes should not increase upon our witness we got through the Holy Ghost. You know what I mean?
But what about the "things therein". I understand this to be the doctrine that we read. LDSaints want us to pray to find out if the Book was true. A careful view of "Moroni's promise" invites us to read the Book and to pray if the things read are not true. This is not the invitation the missionaries offer. They want contacts to pray if the Book was true. I used to get in a heap of trouble as a district leader in Italy. I had to interview baptismal candidates taught by Missionaries in my district. I would ask if these humble investigators believed the Book of Mormon to be true. Yes, they would say. And I believe they were telling the truth. They had received a testimony of the Truthfulness. But I would continue by asking if they have been reading it. The answer was "not really"! I learned that one can have a spiritual confirmation that the Book was, indeed, true without having any idea about the truthfulness of the “things therein”, being completely ignorant of any of its teachings. I got grief when I sent the investigators back to their missionaries without passing them for baptism.
I have come to the sad realization that most LDSaints are in this spot. They know that the Book is true, but they either reject the "things therein" or are ignorant of them. This is illustrated by some talks by Oaks lately.
The Book of Mormon teaches that “this life is the time for [us] to prepare to meet God.” But that challenging limitation to “this life” was given a hopeful context (at least to some extent for some persons) by what the Lord revealed to President Joseph F. Smith, now recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 138 ( (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
The BUT is proof that the “things therein” are rejected for something else. He might believe the Book is true, but the “things therein” not so much.
....although we are urged not to procrastinate our repentance during mortality (see Alma 13:27), we are taught that some repentance is possible there (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:58). (Dallin H. Oaks, Trust in the Lord, General Conference October 2019)
The ALTHOUGH is proof that the things therein are rejected for something else. He might believe the Book is true, but the things therein not so much.
You are much like President Oaks. When confronted by some plain "things therein", you guys say Although that's what it says, But…and you both fly almost exclusively to Section 76 and Section 138! This is because the "things therein" teach something completely different from those two sections!
Poor Brigham and a host of members freaked out when Section 76 came out because it taught things opposed to the "things therein" that, up to that point, they believed and traveled around teaching.
"Not all members of the Church easily accepted the revelation in section 76, because it taught that almost everyone would be saved and receive some degree of glory. For example, Brigham Young said: “My traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education". (July 7–13: “Great Shall Be Their Reward and Eternal Shall Be Their Glory”: Doctrine and Covenants 76)
And indeed it was "directly contrary and opposed" to the education he received, including the two years he was preaching the Book and the "things therein". This is why the common and immediate resort to the things presented in Section 76 and 138. This has been clear to me in almost every wonderful discussion we have had. I testify to the "things therein" and you must go to those two Sections to "counter". The Oaks pattern is "Although the "things therein” teach such, BUT Section 76 and 138". Has this not been your pattern as well?
My pattern has been taken from Acts 17:11 ....they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures [Book of Mormon and Bible] daily, whether those things were so, that is, to see if "those things" are the "things therein".
I think this is where we will never agree and why we are always butting heads. This is the root.
Says You: ...talks about the “great and marvelous work” that will be brought about through a man. It says in verse 22 that Jesus will establish his Church among the Gentiles and he will be among his people (verses 25 and 26). Read chapters 22 and 24 as well. By the way, chapter 29 says that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a sign the gathering of Israel has started. Israel was reestablished as a nation in 1947
Says You: It says in verse 22 that Jesus will establish his Church among the Gentiles and he will be among his people
Says Me: Now this is a curious thing. Apparently Christ's Church was on the earth when the Book of Mormon was being translated! Hear me out! Section 10 tells us Christ's definition of His church and warns those who come up with some other concept.
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. 68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church. 69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
This is a much wider, and in some cases narrower, than LDSaints admit. I associate with members of this church among many and diverse congregations. So many have a change of mind from their sinful selves and come unto God through Christ. They belong to the Church of the Lamb of God. There are but two churches and they are Saints of the Church of the Lamb despite which organized religious corporation they attend and serve in.
But look at the word "establish". in the 1828 Webster Dictionary: "To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently....To make firm; to confirm; to ratify what has been previously set or made". This, therefore, does not mean "restore". Believers in Christ (His church) existed since the Meridian of time (Gates will not prevail) but they were scattered like chicks. They stumbled (not fallen) because the plain and precious parts were gone out of the Bible. Addressing this Universal Church of the Lamb,
53. .... I will establish (build up) my church among them. 54. Now I do not say this to destroy my church (it had to be there in order for it not to be destroyed), but I say this to build up (establish) my church; 55. Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church (those who are repentant and come to Christ) need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.
64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery; 65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts; 66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
Sadly, the conditional: "if they will not harden their hearts".
53. And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
Sadly, because the stewards of the Book of Mormon added so many unacceptable ideas, LDSaints hardened the hearts of that generation against the innocent Book of Mormon. "God said everyone is corrept but us". "Polygamy is neccessary to enter Celestial Kingdom". "Spirit wives". "God was once a man, just like us". "Sinners can suffer for their sins and pay up and be glorified". “That land you think is yours? Well, sorry, God gave it to us!”....They hardened the generation against the Marvelous Work and Wonder. The chicks remain scattered. We await the raising up of a Choice Seer that will finally bring forth the Book of Mormon to the scattered chickens and bring them under the wings into the established Church of the Lamb of God.
Says You: ...the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a sign the gathering of Israel has started. Israel was reestablished as a nation in 1947
Says Me: This is a strong indicator that the Book of Mormon has not come forth as of today. I don't know who those people are who set up a nation in the Holy Land, but they are not the gathering of Isreal. Look:
2 Nephi 25
5. Wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered among all nations; yea, and also Babylon shall be destroyed; wherefore, the Jews shall be scattered by other nations. 16. And after they have been scattered, and the Lord God hath scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, even down from generation to generation until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind--and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands, and look not forward any more for another Messiah, then, at that time, the day will come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things.
17. And the Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people from their lost and fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men. 18. Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.
The sequence is
Book of Mormon comes forth
Persuades the scattered Jews
Persuades the scattered Jews to believe in Christ whom they rejected
Book of Mormon given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah
Jews worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands
Jews no longer look forward any more for another Messiah
The Lord will set his hand again the second time to restore his people
2 Nephi 30
3. And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written... 7. And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people. 8. And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth.
So, I don't know who those folks are that call themselves the State of Israel. They are certainly more atheistic socialists than believers who worship the Father if Christ's name. They certainly are not the Gathering of Isreal. The gathering will be of those who begin, at least, to believe in Christ when persuaded by the Book of Mormon. I pray those Israelis will not be treated the same way as former inhabitants of Caanan when Joshua had to clear the land of Baalim/Ashtoreth worshipers in order to make room for the true House of Isreal.
I should write a commentary on the Book of Mormon. Who would buy it?
Says You: The Spirit Prison is hell
Says Me: If I were to believe Section 138 along with the belief that Jesus in the three days went to the Spirit Prison, we would find that in the Spirit Prison were found the righteous, pre-incarnation saints, rather than the wicked and rebellious,
2. And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, Who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; 13. And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. 14. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. 15. I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. 18. While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; 19. And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
So the so called Spirit Prison was full of the best of the best! He did not go to whom the LDSaints claim, because the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets. These so discribed were not merely "sometimes disobedient". They were rebels led about and sealed to their shepherd, the devil. No. Those found in the "prison" were the few good guys living before the Incarnation in the fulness of times.
That seems to be what is taught in Section 138. Am I off? This seems to be the concept of the, dare I say, early Church Fathers. I would recommend a crazy account found in Gospel of Nicodemus, Part II.-The Descent of Christ into Hell. Better yet, I think the Book of Mormon talks of these B.C. Saints.
Mosiah 15
21. And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ--for so shall he be called. 22. And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. 24. And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. 25. And little children also have eternal life.
Notice who these are, "those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ". And why do they fit the discription of those in the "spirit Prison"?
"....the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words", "those that have kept the commandments of God" yet "these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them". I think that among these could be "Zacharias and his wife, Elisabeth. They were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless” yet they "died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. These are two who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. Again, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Of course, although they had proved faithful, there were some details that they were missing through no fault of their own. That's why the Son of God went immediatly to them, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; And there he preached to them the details of the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance all of which they hadn’t heard. The details!
These were the righteous. Section 138 says specifically, "to the wicked He did not go", indicating to the righteous He did go. He went, according to what I surmise, to "the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. In other words, to the spirits in prison! "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection--Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. Thus we see that the spirits in prison were in a good spot.
Wow! that was deep! But what I am pointing out that the whole LDS concept of the Spirit Prison, using Peter's verse, is completely wrong. Sadly, since the foundation is wrong, the superstructure built upon the erroeous view is shaken. This structure includes all the work in the temple for the dead! Why? Because the Spirit Prison was emptied at the death and resurrection of Christ and His releasing the captives! Those who die after Christ are on another footing altogether.
Mosiah 3
20. And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. 21. And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent. 22. And even at this time, when thou shalt have taught thy people the things which the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, even then are they found no more blameless in the sight of God, only according to the words which I have spoken unto thee.
I am convinced that every word in the Book of Mormon is divine and purposeful. Consider the word "a" in the above. "The time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation". There is the "a" rather than a "the". A Savior". The knowledge that there is a Saviour makes one accountable. This would describe almost every nation, kindred, tongue, and people! Everyone who is familiar with Christmas, Easter, Christianity and everyone who has ever used the sacred Name of Jesus Christ as a curse word. Everyone who has seen Christianity mocked on TV and in the movies, who has seen a cross on yonder church, anyone who has seen "the Ten Commandments" or "The Passion" or J____ C____ Superstar is accountable. If they don't know anything about "the" Savior after being exposed to the concept of "a" savior , it is because, even though they have heard of "a" Saviour, they never pursued their salvation any farther. These are not held up in some kind of Spirit Prison. These are not in some kind of Post-mortem Gospel Doctrine Class. That stuff ended at the spread of the Gospel to their own nation, kindred, tongue, and people.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Romans 1
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Mosiah 3
24. And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil. 25. And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls. 26. Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever. 27. And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.
Says You: As far as hell being a part of the Father's house, I believe the Father’s house is the Celestial Kingdom. So the Telestial glory (and Terrestrial as well) is not found in God's Kingdom.
Says Me: This seems to be heretical. It must be because I agree with you (minus all that about Telestial glory and Terrestrial)!
1 Nephi 15:35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
But even you seem to switch back and forth. Above you said (see, I read carefully every word) "I have tried already to explain where the Bible alludes to various rewards and 3 degrees of glory (....John 14:2....)”. It seems as though you would have me believe that now the Father's house mentioned in John 14:2 comprises the three degrees but also two of them are not in the Father's House! Yet my 98 years in the Church, the verse on three kingdoms of Glory has been supported by John 14:2!
Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. (Kingdoms of Glory)
From modern revelation we know that the ultimate destiny of all who live on the earth is not the inadequate idea of heaven for the righteous and the eternal sufferings of hell for the rest. God’s loving plan for His children includes this reality taught by our Savior, Jesus Christ: “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” The revealed doctrine of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all the children of God—with exceptions too limited to consider here—will ultimately inherit one of three kingdoms of glory. (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
Under that loving plan, there are multiple kingdoms—many mansions—so that all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory whose laws they can comfortably “abide.” As we describe the nature and requirements of each of the three kingdoms in the Father’s plan. (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
...our righteous Judge will grant us residence in one of those kingdoms of glory. Thus, as we know from modern revelation, all “shall be judged … , and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared.” The Lord has chosen to reveal comparatively little about two of these kingdoms of glory. (Dallin H. Oaks, Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, General Conference April 2022)
Now I don't blame you for trying to come up with an idea that can be reconciled with the constant Church Doctrine of connecting the mansions with three degrees. You are honest enough to admit the problems caused anytime you try to place the Hell or Heaven or Kingdom of God or the Father's House somewhere on the Bubble Chart. Wherefore, the label placement is left undone.
Anyway, these are some of the interesting things my deprived Stake President missed out on.
Says You: The Savior went to Paradise and organized those in Paradise to go to those in the Spirit Prison (D&C 138:30). Jesus did not go to Spirit Prison himself....Jesus went only to the faithful spirit (i.e. those in Paradise).
Says Me: Oh. Because the Scripture in Peter that struck Joseph F. Smith says, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison". It says HE went to the Spirits in Prison. What the heck! Who is right, Smith or Peter? JST leaves 1 Peter untouched. Here is an instance where one must "study the scriptures daily to see if those things are so". Another instance of "preaching another Gospel". If they speak not according to the Law and Testimony, it is because there is no light in them.
Says You: Mosiah 3 is not about a time when everyone knows about the Savior. That hasn’t happened yet. I believe it will happen in the Millennium.
Says Me: My poiint is that they know about "A" Savior, not "the" Savior. But certainly if not every jungle village has heard at a minimum the western world has. All nations, anyway, that have the Book of Mormon will be judged out of it whether they read it or not.
2 Nephi 25:21-2
…these things shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and the nations who shall possess them shall be judged of them according to the words which are written.
Says You: Do you think they reached all parts of Asia, China, Australia, and Africa?
Says Me: No but the Lord manifested something to everyone. They might not have all the details, but they are responsible for how they reacted to what they had be it little or a lot.
You are under the impression, of course, that everyone has to hear YOUR churches message. This is unfounded.
Says You: You didn’t mention where Alma 40 appears in your diagram. You seem to have totally ignored that scripture.
Says Me: I did that on purpose because if someone dies in their sins, they remain in their sins. The game is over the moment their souls depart the mortal frame.
2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.
Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul;
Mosiah 2:38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
1 Nephi 15
32. ....they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.
33. Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34. But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
Mosiah 15
6. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
27. Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.
Alma 34
32. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
In other words, what happens between death and the judgement makes no difference in the final outcome. Therefore, I left that state of the soul between death and the resurection ungraphed. I follow in the footsteps of my man Alma, who skips mention of "spirit World" and even the Resurrection!
Alma 12:27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.
(how do I come up with these verses????)
Of course, I know why this intermediate state is so important to you. The Church teaches that someone can live their probation and here “reject the Savior and have observe no divine limits on their behavior” (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023) than go through some period where they can be beaten with stripes, suffer for their own sins, pay the price of sin and come out at the other end to be glorified in the Kingdom of heaven/God and be happy beyond comprehension. But in the same letter of Alma you insist upon we read this is vain imagination.
Alma 41
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
Says You: As to the many mansions scriptures in John 14:2, Latter-day Saints .... use it to support the 3 Kingdoms.
Says Me: I know! I taught it that way for decades! That is why I surprised and almost speechless when you told me the Terrestrial and the Telestial were outside the Father's House!! But this is what I meant that your "rod of Iron" is as flexible as a pipe cleaner.
Says You: The Spirit Prison is hell to Protestants and Paradise is heaven.
Says Me: Well, according to the Book of Mormon, if you find yourself in the hell between death and the resurrection, you will receive a just judgement and continue on intro the hell thereafter given that your are judged by what you did in the mortal body in the day of probation. And so if you find yourself in Paradise, you will pass through Judgement and continue in the blessed state.
Alma 5:15 ....this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?
1 Nephi 15:32 ....the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.
Says You: I’m a bit surprised you haven’t reasoned through these scriptures yourself. I keep thinking some of this is obvious, but I guess it wasn’t to you.
Says Me: I have long tried to reason myself out of the view that the LDSaints and the Book of Mormon are at odds.
On another note!
I see in the feed that you shared some links that you give your grandchildren, but when I click on the brief preview, this doesn't show up! I can't figure out how I can get your list or anything else you put in that comment.
We know from modern revelation that “all kingdoms have a law given” and that the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to follow in our mortal journey. Under that loving plan, there are multiple kingdoms—many mansions—so that all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory whose laws they can comfortably “abide.” (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
Through revelation, God has revealed the eternal laws, ordinances, and covenants that must be observed to develop the godly attributes necessary to realize this divine potential. (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
Speaking of the three kingdoms of glory with his prophetic vision, President Russell M. Nelson recently wrote: “Mortal lifetime is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: During this mortal life you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey—those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial—and, therefore, in which kingdom of glory you will live forever. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.” (Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023)
I add the above to your list containing verses which try to show we are judged by laws and works. Dallin loves "the Law" and has convinced himself that we will be rewarded, each of us, according to our deeds, that is, how well we conformed to the Laws of the various Kingdoms. This is not the teaching of the Book of Mormon nor Bible as it may seem reading my and your citations.
Of course our works will be viewed in the Judgement. Our faith or lack of faith will be detected and measured by our works. But we will not receive our eternal reward according to those deeds if we believe in Christ and trust in His atonement for us. WE will be saved from under the Law if we believe in Christ. If we rejected Christ and persisted in our fallen state, we will find ourselves in the "grasp of justice".
Mosiah 16
2. And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.
3. For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
4. Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.
5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
10. Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil--
11. If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation--
[Observation: Notice there are two resurrections, the resurrection of endless life and the resurrection of endless damnation. Notice also how the words, "this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption" point you to 1 Corinthians 15 where you claim to derive Biblical basis for three degrees!]
12. Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.
13. And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?
"Only in and through Christ ye can be saved". We know we will be judged by our works but we will be saved in and through Christ. The whole tension in the Book of Mormon is between Justice and Mercy. Oaks is always talking about the Our Loving Father and His Loving Plan. But love has nothing to do with our final reward except that He so loved the world that He gave His son. But no one likes to read the rest of Jesus' words:
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There are some saved in this loving plan and there are some condemned. There you have the two final destinations, one being condemnation in Jesus' "Loving Plan". Oaks doesn't like this. He states falsely of the protestant view with its "assumption of only two ultimate destinations implies that those who cannot keep all the commandments required for heaven will necessarily be forever destined for hell. A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan for His children. (Dallin H. Oaks, Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, General Conference April 2022). Dispite the division into two destinations, Oaks' Father has a better plan.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ makes all of this possible. He has revealed that He “glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands.” That salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory....He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. “And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. “And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory.” In other words, the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan. (Dallin H. Oaks, Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, General Conference April 2022)
But this is so close, off by one reward, what he mocks the inadequate idea of Heaven and Hell, "only two ultimate destinations implies that those who cannot keep all the commandments required for heaven will necessarily be forever destined for hell" Doesn't this sound like "He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory"?
Those who Oaks mocks do not believe "those who cannot keep all the commandments required for heaven will necessarily be forever destined for hell" because we believe all have fallen short and need to depend on the Blood of Christ for our righteousness. So not only does he distort the belief of others, he doesn't even realize he mocks his own "Loving Plan".
And who is able to abide this Celestial Law in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God? By the Law we are cut off!
2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
We are right at the root of Christianity here. If all our good deeds and bad deeds were to determine our reward, what you would view as being “judged of our works”, nobody would be saved. None at all. Nobody is keeping your Celestial Law. Every week you have to “renew your baptismal covenants” because you simply cannot “abide the celestial law” for even a week!
A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan for His children found in Mosiah 15
7. Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.
8. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men-
9. Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgression, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.
There is a section of Alma that LDSaints absolutely miss. I have seen it misused through the years. "[C]an you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth? Let's look at it this interchange. It pertains". LDSaints want to say, "yep! That's me!". In context, Alma is preaching to a bunch of people who were so corrupt that he had to retire from his job and visit them in person.
Alma 5
15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?
16. I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?
17. Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say--Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth--and that he will save you?
He is pointing out how fruitless this is. He says that is living a lie and tells them instead what they should be imagining because of their deeds.
18. ....imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?
19. I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? [no] I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances [no]?
20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil? [no, unless you are a LDSaint!]
The fact is, all you LDSaints have and everyone else has have "set at defiance the commandments of God" and nobody can "look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands", and none of us has "the image of God engraven upon your countenances". To these, to us, alma asks, "can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?" LDSaints would answer this rhetorical question in the affirmative! Alma is trying to get these people to see that everyone must answer in the negative. That is his whole point!!
Alma 5:21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
Do you know anyone living this required Celestial Law so perfect that they are purified from all stain by obedience? "Do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say--Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth--and that he will save you?" By depending on one's deeds they reject the wonderful doctrine that our garments can be washed white; and this is great (the Good News) because our garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of Jesus and not by our abiding the law in mortality or by suffering and paying for our sins hereafter. Even if you repent weekly with the Sacrament, you can only be saved by the Merits of Christ.
Alma 24:10 And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.
Helaman 14:13
And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.
According to your Section 45, Jesus pleads not the righteousness of His followers but rather He pleads with the Father to view what He has done!
3. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him--
4. Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.
One Horrific Interpretation
In order to get your “Degrees of Glory” from the Parable of the Sower, you have to ignore almost every other parable that teaches one or the other with none in between: Left hand/right hand, sheep/goats, wheat/tares, good fish/bad fish, five wise/five foolish, etc. A close look at the Parable of the Sower teaches only two as well- 1) Seeds that produce and 2) Seeds that die. Certainly you would not put "those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior...the wicked, they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus....they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie....(Dallin H. Oaks, Kingdoms of Glory, General Conference October 2023) with those "that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth”(Matthew 13:23). Rather, your telestial types are those who had satan consume any seeds that fell toward them or let their seeds be destroyed by trials or, lastly, those who let their seeds be chocked out by the world.
The fruit, "some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold" is consistant without calling whoremongers "good ground" who "brought forth fruit". No, those who brought forth various amounts are those who built of the foundation of Christ but followed in various degrees. But in the end, they are saved all the same!
1 Corinthians 3
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Saved not by his work. Saved because he built on the foundation of Christ. And we see the different “degrees” (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) of the work quality. But once one builds on the foundation of Christ, he shall be saved despite the meager quality. Those not built on that foundation of Christ, those who became subjects of the devil, will not be saved.
This is basic Christianity.
You talk of mysteries, but how can one obtain an understanding of "mysteries" if they reject such clear teachings presented in parables in such a plain and precious manner?
John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?