Conversation with Hickenbotham
What is the Mormon Church's stance on who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
Profile photo for Ray Farmer
Ray Farmer
Jealous of and Zealous for the Book of MormonOct 2
This is a great area of discussion. Fact is, LDSaints can’t even define heaven and hell, let alone who is going there. Take a look at this often seen diagram that depicts the LDS plan of salvation:
What do you see missing? No “heaven” and no “hell”!!
There is no where on this chart that an LDSaint can place the Label of either. If they were to so plot these concepts, there would be so many LDS scriptures that indicate that the placement was not correct.
The Book of Mormon itself, in 2 Nephi 28:20-1, actually predicts this missing label. “For behold, at that day shall he [the devil] rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21. And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security….and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell;
Suppose a high school student is given an assignment to explain the Mormon concept of Salvation. Its a public high school so it hasn’t read the Church’s standards on use of its official name nor have they ever gone on Quora to see how angry and shrill LDSaints react to the use of that name. The paper said Mormon, and I am just passing it along.
The student, using google, finds the above chart and includes it in his assignment.
While presenting his work in front of the class, he passes out prints of this chart to all his classmates.
At the end, Abish, the teachers pet, asks him if Mormons (see explanation above) believe in heaven and hell. Everyone resorts to the chart for the next few moments.
They all conclude, as satan would have it, that there is no hell. They also think John Lennon must have been a Mormon (see above explanation).
This scenario is easy to Imagine.
So, you are saying that, boiled down, the Plan of Salvation as you perceive it is similar to everyone else except you put child molesters and murderers and adulterers and God’s enemies in heaven.
As a note, I noticed that Oaks and now you like to tell everyone all about what other people believe. I guess straw men are easier to contend with. Protestants that I know expect to live with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost when they get to heaven.
“[T]he Telestial Kingdom is heaven as everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus as their Savior sees it”. I know many people who don’t believe in Jesus and they do not believe in anything remotely like your “telestial” kingdom.
You shouldn’t make stuff up like that.
“Spirit Prison is a temporary hell”. The Book of Mormon teaches that hell starts at death and continues until the resurrection and is experienced at the judgement and into eternity beyond.
SAYS YOU: "1st mistake. You completely left the Spirit World Paradise and Spirit Prison out of your diagram. Why?"
ME: I was just exploring final destination and reward. As you well know, the teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding the state of the soul between the time of death and the resurrection is completely different from LDS Doctrine. Since you think the Book of Mormon prophets were writing under an incomplete and erroneous view of the Gospel, I thought we could just skip over that. Your diagram skips over all manner of elements. Beside, according to your Section 138 Paradise is the Spirit Prison.
SAYS YOU: "That where people who never heard the fulness of the gospel can accept it. "
ME: Well, no one seems to know what the fulness of the gospel is. Best to leave that alone.
SAYS YOU: "2nd mistake. You [s]ay Oaks and I like to tell everyone all about what other people believe. And yet you’re telling me what I believe now."
ME: Yeah, you don't like it either. However, though I didn't include every element on my chart that you could have (but didn’t) doesn't mean that I am wrong. Your bubble chart does not illustrate righteous Elders passing here and there nor anything about babies that pass away. There is nothing about baptism, repentance, conversion, temples and so much more. I think my diagram is accurate as far as it goes.
SAYS YOU: "Not only that but you’re getting it wrong."
ME: Tell me where. Yours is wrong, too, if completeness is the only way to get it right.
SAYS YOU: "If you leave out the chance for people to change, you’re judging people unfairly."
ME: If you give the false hope that there is repentance after death, you are setting people up for eternal disappointment. Book of Mormon says that if you die in your sins you remain in your sins, etc. But that is in that Book you have rejected.
SAYS YOU: "3rd mistake. The Celestial Kingdom is on earth."
ME: What the heck! Your bubble chart leaves that fact missing. You are as mistaken as me! However, we are not mistaken just because everything is not on the charts.
SAYS YOU: "The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdom are not as far as we know."
ME: I put them close together. My guess is as good as anyone's.
SAYS YOU: "You have grouped them together in one place. They are not."
ME: They are all "heaven" as you have said. Everyone in the circle is "saved". One is either saved in the Kingdom of God/Heaven or are cast out. So you are either in the Heaven Circle or in the Hell circle. I think that is accurate. You say in your Father's house are many (3!) mansions. I captured that idea with the heaven circle with many mansions. Think of the Heaven Circle as the Father's House. Furthermore, your bubble chart does not show the three levels in your celestial Kingdom. Are they separate?
SAYS YOU: "4th mistake. You tried intentionally to leave out things that made God’s Plan of Salvation fair and loving."
ME: That was beyond the scope. But your Bubble Chart (and your LDS Gospel) leaves out the Justice of God and His Holiness. The scriptures present the tension between Justice and Mercy. Yours toss all God’s attributes taught plainly in the scriptures and segregate one; love. As pleasing as that is to the carnal mind, an accurate understanding of God is essential.
SAYS YOU: "Those who are unrepentant child molesters, murderers, adulterers, and God’s enemies will never be with those who repented “worlds without end.”"
ME: Well, if they repent (or not) and pay for their own sins, (having rejected Jesus' offer) why can't they have “worlds without end”, since they paid the price? Isn't that what the spirit prison is all about? LDS Purgatory, of sorts.
SAYS YOU: "5th mistake. True repentance and change in eternity is not part of either of your diagrams. Though your sins be as scarlet they can be made as white as wool (Isaiah 1:18), when the savior’s infinite atonement is included."
ME: Repentance is on earth. However, I don't see repentance on your Bubble Chart. The Savior’s infinite atonement is not on your chart, either. But one has to take the offer before death in this state of probation.
You require lots of things for my poor chart. I have a better chart, but you complained that it was too complicated. I have piped and you have not danced, mourned and you have not wept.
Here is another diagram right out of the Book of Mormon.
What do you think?
I walk my dog all the time. Many knots have formed through the years. There are many knots and, because my idiot dog pulls all during the walk, they have been quite hard. I have given up trying to undo those knots and have decided to just pass up the attempt to untangle.
I read the article you linked. There are so many tangles presented therein that, like the knots on the lease, the best course of action is just to pass on.
Where is the "Spirit World"?
It has been suggested that this unscriptural designation is on the earth. But it is frequently asserted that the dead are cut off from the face of the earth.
Alma 42:6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die--therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth--and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
We do know that the dead upon death return to God. We know He dwells above the earth in heaven.
Alma 18
30. And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.
31. And king Lamoni said: Is it above the earth?
32. And Ammon said: Yea, and he looketh down upon all the children of men...
This is why Jesus was "taken up".
Acts 1:11 (see verses 1 and 9) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
And one of your favorites: 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ....such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Spirit Prison is Paradise
Often quoted is 1 Peter 3
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Who did Jesus go to preach to? Spirits in prison. But those spirits, according to Section 138,
12. And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13. And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.
14. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15. I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16. They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17. Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18. While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19. And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
These righteous people were in paradise. Alma 40:12
And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
Alma 40:14 ....the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
Who were in this Paradise/Spirit Prison? Section 138 lists them. Adam, Eve, Seth, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daneil, Elijah. "All these and many more, even the prophets who dwelt among the Nephites and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance". The thief was there, too, if we are to believe Jesus.
Jesus went to preach to these. Peter said that Jesus went to preach to these. Again, Section 138:
20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;
So, Jesus did not go to a spirits in prison according to the LDS view of spirit prison. He went to paradise/spirit prison where the righteous who died before Jesus awaited. These were the righteous who just needed to have the full understanding of the Gospel supplied to them.
But if nothing else is understood, Peter's spirit prison did not hold "the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh" nor "the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets". Yet these are the folks that you preach are in such a prison.
Although LDSaints use Peter all the time, they actually don't believe what the clear meaning is.
Repentance After Death Is Alluded To...
Alluded, hinted, implied. This is no way to conduct scriptural investigation. One must reject the plain and precious and go with mere implications to arrive at your destination
1 Peter 3:18–19 does not imply repentance. Nor does 4:6.
Isaiah 61:1 (Luke 4:18) THE Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Jesus quoted this in the synagogue. Jesus said "this day" the scripture is fulfilled. Either way (yours or Jesus'), as seen above, it is the righteous that He opened the prison for. They didn't need, nor could they perform, repentance. Where do you see that He freed the "the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh"? Comparing Section 138, He doesn't.
Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state....until the time of their resurrection.
Alma 40:21 ....in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth....
You cite Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" but you imply that this is some kind of promise of a future state that he will achieve after he repents. But clearly Jesus tells the thief TODAY (what we call Good Friday) he would be with Him in Paradise.
Finally, you site, oddly, Luke 16:19–31 that plainly teaches that there is a gulf that cannot be crossed. "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
Not only is the gulf impassable by the wicked to paradise, but we also see that your Righteous Elders can't pass over to hell to teach the gospel to "the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets". "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them" meaning that those alive have the scriptures and it is in this day of life, this probation, this preparatory state is where one needs to choose. This renders the remainder of Section 138 completely wrong.
If these brief explorations were not enough, you can review Alma 34:32-5. "...if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent...Nay, ye cannot say this..."
Thanks!
Thank you for reviewing my delightful diagram. But you say, "I think that outer darkness should be labeled 'Spirit Prison'”. I think after my explanation of the Spirit prison above you will understand why I placed spirit prison where I did. You also suggest, "those that repent should cross over to Paradise", but after this brief exploration you can see why I put a gap between paradise/spirit prison and outer darkness. After all, the Book of Mormon does not specifically say that nor does the Bible infer that this is possible.
I am in a bad spot and these discussions have been very helpful to me, getting the ol’ mind a working. thanks for engaging.
SAYS YOU: "I think it’s funny you are quoting Section 138 to me."
ME: I know. I am a funny guy. Paul also quoted heathen poets to make his point. The technique is to use something that someone believes already to show the tentative agreement. Socrates did this all the time. On my mission, where JWs were a force to be reckoned with, I memorized "The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life" and quoted it often when teaching those that held it. Finally, I find it funny that you should quote Catholics to prove your point. What's next? William Wordsworth? Oh wait....
My point was that, if you believe the Bible, Book of Mormon and Section 138:
01 You believe Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison. We agree.
02 You believe He went to the righteous, BC saints. We agree.
03 You believe the righteous BC saints were in the spirit prison. We agree.
04 You believe the righteous were in Paradise. We agree.
05 You believe therefore, the spirit prison is the same as Paradise. We agree.
06 You believe Jesus did not go to those held in darkness. We agree.
07 You believe the righteous remain in paradise, though freed from spirit prison, until the resurrection. We agree.
08 You should believe the wicked remain in darkness, in misery until the resurrection. We should agree.
SAYS YOU: "You stopped short of verse 30 though, where Jesus organized messengers"
ME: That's because the verses you cited to make you point demonstrate that there is an impassable gulf between Paradise and hell. The second part of 138, however, has a multitude of dead elders crossing that impassable gulf into a spirit prison (that had to be redefined to fit). Indeed, the assumed fruits of such preaching allows the "repentant" to leave hell contrary to the teaching that they must remain there until the resurrection. The scriptures that we lightly hold in common confound the main theme of Section 138 found after verse 30. The only reference you can make to this movement between "states" is Section 138. This section does not add light and knowledge but negates by contradiction all of the light and knowledge witnessed over and over in the rest of the standard works.
Catholic link you provided says, and agrees with me,
This abode of the dead is the "Hell" into which the Creed says Christ descended. His death freed from exclusion from Heaven the just who had gone before him: "It is precisely these holy souls who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into Hell", the Catechism states (CCC 633), echoing the words of the Roman Catechism, 1, 6, 3. His death was of no avail to the damned.[citation needed]
And,
"Anglican orthodoxy, without protest, has allowed high authorities to teach that there is an intermediate state, Hades, including both Gehenna and Paradise, but with an impassable gulf between the two”.
There are many quotes like the two above among the links you shared. I will not rest my conclusions on them even if they agree with me. 500 more will not do any more to confirm what is clearly taught by the Living Water, the Rod of Iron. Worldly citations are less than worthless. As John Piper says, "that the "single argument in ... favor [of the "harrowing of hell" clause in the Creed] seems to be that it has been around so long. ...But an old mistake is still a mistake".
SAYS YOU: ""between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. That was only until Christ visited the Spirit World and allowed the captives to be released. I suspect the gulf (dividing line) is still there,"
ME: It will be there forever. That is why there is a gap on my diagram between the states.
1 Nephi 15:30 And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end.
You should stop this "hinted ats, implies, suspects, assumes, etc" form of scholarship. The important things are plain and precious, "spoken plainly that ye cannot err" (2 Nephi 25:20), "spoken unto you plainly that ye cannot err" (Alma 5:43). "And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err" (Alma 13:23). Interpretation by vague "implication" is what people do when they start with their conclusion and then search high and low for confirmation.
SAYS YOU: "Maybe you’ll reconsider your diagram in light of the above."
ME: I think I know Section 138 pretty well. I have spent hours (decades) studying it, comparing and contrasting it to the "Sticks" and the Book of Commandments (1832) and the Book of Moses. I find no reason to update my diagram which I designed after said study.
Reverend Ray’s View of Hell
This is what I think is the view of hell. Citations will be few because, being a fine scholar, you will know the verses I use in determining my belief.
For those who are highly blessed, glimpses of hell begin in this probation. The people of King Benjamin "viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified". Alma declared "My soul was racked with eternal torment", "I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins". Or Zeezrom "lay sick at Sidom, with a burning fever, which was caused by the great tribulations of his mind on account of his wickedness....because of his iniquity. And this great sin, and his many other sins, did harrow up his mind until it did become exceedingly sore, having no deliverance; therefore he began to be scorched with a burning heat". Those before the tribunal of God have an experience that their "souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?", but blessed are those who have this while in this mortal tabernacle. This is the first needed crisis one must have before they can "flee from the wrath to come". Nobody flees from a danger they do not see.
Some will flee to the protection that the Lord of the Harvest has provided. They will cleave to the cross and become beggars and be accepted into his flock, will be taken into the protective barn.
"And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins".
Others will suffer this glimpse of hell during the whole of mortality without coming to Jesus. Many will seek relief in drink, drugs, lust, distracting entertainment, sports and even suicide. They live without God in the world.
Those who do not come to Jesus will die and experience the continuation of hell in blazing reality and completeness. They will look forward to the judgement of which they know the outcome. They know the fiery indignation of God awaits them.
But where the righteous dwell is peace and confident expectation that they will be found pure, white, spotless and blameless before the judgement. And it is so.
The judgement is hell continued for the wicked. "For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you".
At this point the wicked acknowledge the righteous judgement upon them. " Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye." They "must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance".
Hell continues uninterrupted, "..then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness. Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will”.
That is my view. I know it isn't yours. If I were to pose to you Alma's question,
"I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?"
You would say, "of course. We have a loving God with the most loving plan ever conceived by man. He saves all the works of His hands!".
Alma would respond to you, " I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins".
He would even accuse you of making God out to be a liar!!!
"....do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white? I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil".
My bride is demanding that we go abroad in the land. I wish I had more time. Let this suffice. For now.
SAYS YOU: "So, Gary. Are you calling yourself Reverend Ray?"
ME: I was joking.
SAYS YOU: "Have you ever been baptized...receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....receive the priesthood?"
ME: Baptist, HG, Mission to Italy, Temple marriage, Elders Quorum President, Gospel Doctrine teacher, Scouts (24 years), Seminary Teacher and Institute Instructor and all the other Primary and Sunday School callings. It all began in 1974.
Generally, I already know what you are about to write. I have been there where you are. I get it. I used to teach your beliefs for decades. I have studied it more than almost anyone I know.
I continue to read the Book of Mormon and Bible for hours a day, starting at 5.30a every single morning. As I carry on my daily activities I am listening to scripture. I will listen to our exchanges over and over to make sure I understand your points. I listen to LDS oriented podcasts, watch conference with my wife and, before I got my silly dog who needs a watchful eye, attended the ward with my wife, have held callings there, done musical numbers, bore testimony and was one of two elders who did most of the Elders Quorum service projects (sad, I know).
My “activity” has gotten me some terrible comments on Quora. I, apparently, am a wolf in sheep’s clothing!
I really have love and respect for you. It is important to me to bounce my understanding of the Gospel off of a scholar such as yourself. I therefore wish to express my gratitude to you for any responses you put forth. I imagine it is not as enjoyable to you as it is to me.
Ha! I type lots of stuff that I meant otherwise.
Here is how I operate while participating in LDS activities and, indeed, the approach can be applied as I visit churches in my area:
When among other believers of whatever sort, I realize that there are some conclusions I have arrived at that will be different from the sect I am participating with. If prepared with knowledge about their doctrines, I can stay within the overlap. If I am a guest, I do not promote my conclusions. Rather, I edify my friends where I can within the area of agreement.
1 Corinthians 1:10. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you….
It should be noted that the above graph considers only the Plan of Redemption. If we were to consider the principles of rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness, there would be a much larger intersection.
Applying this concept of unity at the ward, if the discussion was about, let’s say, dealing with bad habits, my participation would be free and abundant. but if the discussion turned to temples (which they always seem to do), I would sit silent and keep m opinions to my self.
Not surprising, among the sorts of Wesleyans, I could teach Book of Mormon concepts while covering the Plan of Redemption and principles of righteousness. Sadly, I have to sit out, among LDSaints, most lessons on the “Plan”. The Calvinists are so messed up I avoid them and therefore I don’t have to worry about finding agreement.
So I am not a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I am just an odd sheep that, as far as possible, lives at peace with all true humble followers of Christ who may err because they are taught the doctrines of men.
Here is the whole idea with Moral Law added for comparison:
SAYS YOU: "...the only disagreement you have is that those in the Spirit Prison who sinned...."
ME: There are many more not covered in this thread. But this is a big disagreement. The main focus of the Church is temples. If the dead who die in their sins remain in their sins, then that whole focus is misguided.
SAYS YOU: "What do you use to create your diagrams?"
ME: Adobe Illustrator. I was a graphic designer instructor and I find Illustrator an easy tool to use to throw together something quick.
SAYS YOU: "You come across as a wolf in sheep’s clothing on Quora"
ME: Discussion is the thing here on Quora. I have been presented with arguments here whose answers made me change my view. I made an account for the sole purpose of running my tentative ideas up against people who seem, because of their accounts, to be among the finest scholars. I claim no infallibility in mind and I think making the best argument possible and getting an alternate view or views is one of the best ways to arrive at the truth. Perhaps that is why my comments are copiously referenced beyond what others find pleasant. I invite, with great anticipation, a counter argument. That is why I "enjoy confrontations over points of doctrine".
If you were to rub shoulders with me at the ward you would discover a different person than what you find here on Quora. I go to edify and not to disturb and distress. I often get emails telling me how my comments touched the sender. People find me in the foyer expressing appreciation for my thoughts. My flute solos drew folks in tears to me telling me how spiritual the hymn was. Sadly, I have had parents plead with me to talk with their troubled kids. I tell them to go to the Bishop, but they say, and I quote, "You don't give Mormon answers".
I don't think I am the idiot people here think I am. I am an idiot, to be sure, but not the kind they think.
SAYS YOU: "I was surprised when you agreed with so much on D&C 138."
ME: Well, the first part seems to agree with the Book of Mormon. But then, at a point, it flies off the rails.
You may find it interesting that I struggle over the first few Sections (chapters) in the Book of Commandments. Section 10 seems to be inspired or at least consistent (before modern edits) with the Book of Mormon. The Sections "received through the stone" seem to either be inspired or written with the Book of Mormon open. So I don't know what to think of those sections. I have not come to any conclusions. However, once Joseph declared himself Prophet, Seer and Revelator, and revelations began to come through him acting as “mouthpiece” things seem to have left the gospel station.
The Book of Moses, I am sure, was written with the Book of Mormon open or when its precepts were fresh in the mind.
The first account of the First Vision in 1832 seem to be the most accurate and worth studying. Those following are not. There are too many changes and updates that contradict the first First. The experience of Joseph presented in the 1832 version will be familiar with the personal experiences of Christians world wide and through the ages.
Furthermore, I am a student of John Wesley's Sermons. There is no better commentary on Book of Mormon Doctrine! I have made hundreds of cross references to the Book of Mormon. I think Wesley was a sort of forerunner to the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Methodists at the time of the “restoration” found a “familiar spirit” in the Book of Mormon and so were the largest group in early conversions. There was a crisis in the Church when Section 76 came out for this reason and even Brigham Young was disturbed.
I read the very interesting article you linked. To be honest, I don't fully trust those guys. I dispensed with such scholars at Hugh Nibley's apologetic about the White Salamander. It became apparent that with enough study one can come up with anything. Delving into ancient manuscripts and cultural beliefs from the distant past is interesting but useless for any solid purpose. One sees only what they want to see and counts it reliable yet without hesitation cast aside all within the same document that counters their belief. Your references to the Apostate Fathers seems to me employment of this tendency. You only believe what they wrote that proves your point and the rest is uninspired drivel. If I can't accept all that one has written as inspired, I assume that they may have gotten some things right by accident. No truth can be proved by such a source nor such technique.
Speaking of Wesley, you may find his grappling with the “trinity” issue interesting.
SAYS YOU: "I have told you before, I am not your typical Latter-day Saint. I received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Joseph Smith Story was true. "
ME: Actually, there are probably more, and I speak by experience among the Saints, like you. Many haven't read the Book of Mormon because they find it hard to understand. Because of the archaic language of the Bible, and the Church's insistence on the KJV, most haven't read the Bible and, if they have, don't understand it. I conclude that most are not converted by the Scriptures and are more like you.
I came across the Book of Mormon in a most peculiar manner. The copy was given to a friend by an LDS Chaplin in the Army and when I realized he was not going to read it I asked if I could. There are many amazing miracles and demonic attacks that surround this event. Circumstances that led to the very situation where this seed was planted is the stuff of a book!
I was converted almost from the first page. The following day I preached Lehi's Vision to my beer buddies and the next I related the idea of opposition in all things. The Book has been my daily companion from that day in July of 1974 until this morning, when my alarm rang at 5.30a as it has for years.
When district missionaries arranged a sneaky meeting a couple weeks later (they were alerted by the chaplain), I probably knew more about the Book of Mormon contents than they did! They presented the "rainbow" discussions. All seemed fine. But when they presented that syllogism, "If the Book of Mormon is true, than Joseph was a prophet", that seemed reasonable to that 19 year old. I was baptized August 3, 1974 in Seoul Korea.
From that time, I clung to the Book of Mormon. eight months after my baptism, I was teaching Institute at Fort Lewis, WA. I was very active for over two decades after, as detailed previously. Yet, nothing seemed to fit the plain teachings of the Gospel as taught in the Book of Mormon. I followed the advice that encouraged me to "put all that on a shelf".
Finally, while a Seminary teacher, I became truly distressed. My shelf was becoming too full for comfort. No priesthood leader wanted to deal with me. Their solution was to go home and pray (as if I wasn't). They told me that they would not open the scriptures with me although I told them therein was the problem. I threw up my hands and emotionally went inactive, although I was a 100 percenter in attendance and calling. That was in 1996.
Either the Book of Mormon was true or the Church was. I had to choose one or the other or neither. The Book of Mormon was without a doubt true.
Having been married in the Temple to a faithful bride, I felt a certain obligation to participate as much as I could, applying my Venn diagram approach.
When I moved to Idaho, I decided to make it my life's study to understand and graph the Plan of Redemption as found in the Book of Mormon. I made it a thing to dispense with any concepts I have been taught and see just what the Book said. That project took five years of intense study. I had a blind in the mountains and I would spend time in study there that would amaze a monk or a hermit in a cave. The more I read and diagrammed, the more clear it became that the system of theology that JS developed was almost completely different than the Book of Mormon.
But, hey, I am not the brightest guy in the woods. When I discovered Quora, I determined to present what I learned, not to disturb, but to get Quora Scholars to punch holes in my conclusions. My conclusions seemed to hold up pretty well. But I couldn't figure out why LDSaints claim to believe the Book of Mormon but resisted citations. I came across the verse,
"...three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein". (2 Nephi 27:12).
I saw clearly that there were two things that the three witnesses were to do. 1) They were testify that the Book was true but also that 2) the things therein were true. It became clear that LDSaints hold the Book to be true mainly because it "proved" JS was a prophet. And at the same time they rejected most of the main doctrines, the "things therein". This seems to be you and the majority of LDSaints converted to Joseph Smith.
You shocked me, shocked me, when you presented your idea,
"Much of what was recorded by those prophets was based on an Old Testament misunderstanding of God and his Son and ancient Israelite views of heaven, hell, and God’s plan of salvation.
"Many of these misunderstandings were corrected later in the Book of Mormon when the resurrected Lord appeared to the Nephites. One concept that doesn’t seem to have been clarified is what is revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 88 regarding degrees of glory in heaven. The ancient Israelite/Jewish/Christian heaven-hell dichotomy still seems to be reflected in the Book of Mormon.
"Other similar teachings such as an understanding of the Spirit World, the pre-mortal existence of man, baptism by proxy for the dead, the unity of the Godhead, and many modern doctrines, are not discussed. Some see these as conflicting teachings, others see them as reflecting a more limited and incomplete view of the gospel in its fulness".
Seriously, I read and reflected on this over and over for weeks. Eventually, your comment made all the pieces fall together. And it made me sad. It really hurt my heart.
How can people who testify of this Book that I love so much and yet view it this way? I was astonished and sad. But I finally understood. I can see clearly now.
So, yes, I am the prodigal son. Father gave me a stupendous gift in 1974 and I took a decades-long detour, falling for the Syllogism trick. I don't regret it because despite it all I learned many things and have had a multitude of grand experiences. Father works things out that way. I see much wreckage caused along the way because I was a young fish that took the bait, and I am dealing with that as best as I can. Much of it simply cannot be fixed.
Anyway.
Before I go, I would have you read Justification and Sanctification By Elder D. Todd Christofferson. When I heard him deliver this talk, I was convinced he would be judged in apostasy and booted. I agree with almost 100% of what he taught. It is a startling contrast to Dallin Oaks of late.
Justification and Sanctification
P.S. I am sure I answered your impossible conundrum regarding the Kirkland Temple. It isn’t that difficult.
I want to be respectful here, but all that on Canaanite this and Mosaic reform and Deuteronomic revisions that was completely useless in making your point. The fact is you and I are believers in the ministry of angels. Well, most of the doctrine that was taught in the Book of Mormon came through angels.
For example Mosiah 3:2 And the things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God.
King Benjamin gave to the people the very words of the angel. As a simpleton, I must believe the words of an angel. The angel is not going to give us an erroneous teaching based on misunderstandings or misinterpretations based on mistaken Mosaic truth.
2 Nephi 32:3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.
Much of what Nephi taught was given by an angel:
1 Nephi 11:14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
I can think of two places where it is declared that what the prophets taught was not some kind of reasoned, studied conclusions but were the actual words given by God.
Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
2 Nephi 33:11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye--for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
Let's ponder,
1 Nephi 14:30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.
There may be further light and knowledge, but it will not contradict words and teachings given direct from God or His ministering angels. Light received is built on light already received.
Enos 1:6. And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie...
Worse of all, if we contradict what God has already said, we make Him out to be a liar!
Alma 5
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
One can come up with all kinds of twists and turns to explain away the things written so plain that a man cannot err, but Jesus will declare that he makes "the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye".
You cannot use the tool of satan when he questioned Eve, "Yea, hath God [really] said…"? and then gave her a corrected, updated version, "Ye shall not surely die".
Nope. What is written is written and it is true.
1 Nephi 13
35. For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
36. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.
I don’t think anyone can add anything to the Gospel as taught in the Book of Mormon. Certainly no one should accept anything that contradicts it.
I guess the eye opener for me is how far Quormons go to denigrate and explain away the truth restored in the Book of Mormon, the new covenant. It saddens me. Here they carry in their hands one of the most stupendous works of God and don’t value it as it was meant to be valued.
Poor Nephite Prophets!
Doctrine and Covenants 10
45. Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel; therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi, and send forth in this work.
46. And, behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea, and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people.
47. And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers;
48. Yea, and this was their faith--that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.
49. Now, this is not all--their faith in their prayers was that this gospel should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess this land;
50. And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life;
2 Nephi 28:10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.
Kirtland Temple Manifestations
I am grieved that I didn’t save anywhere my detailed explanation of the event at the dedication. But the jest of it was that the manifestations were typical of the current Pentecostal experiences of the Methodist camp meetings. Everybody had various spiritual experiences that were different from others. That right there throws the whole record into doubt. Where is there anything like this in all of scripture? I don’t see it.
Church History, I have found, is very suspect. I wait in anxious anticipation to read the documents obtained by the Community of Christ, which may shed some light on this event.
Among the features of Camp meetings similar to the dedication is the “shout”. A crowd at the other end of town shouting to high heaven would draw those curious or frightened in the neighborhood to the source of the shouting.
If I remember, this dedication actually caused a crisis in the Church. Many early members took part in the Camp meetings and they saw nothing different from what they experienced there. They wondered how this could be. Soon after, the Church came up with the distinguishing Authority that made all the difference. Pentecostal manifestations were moved from the Camp to the Temple.
Justification and Sanctification
It became apparent that Brother Christofferson (I love that guy) was explaining that portion of the statement on the family that says,
“He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.”
He was opposing the idea that “God saves all the works of His hands”. He makes it clear that only those Justified and Sanctified would be in a position to take advantage of the Atonement.
““And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end”
Thus, it is not that we earn these gifts, but rather that we choose to seek and accept justification and sanctification. Since the Savior paid for our sins and satisfied justice for us, we become debtors to Him rather than to justice. We must therefore meet the stipulations He has established for forgiveness and cleansing. Otherwise, He withdraws His proffered mediation, and we are left to deal alone with the demands of justice, lacking the means to become pure. One must choose Christ to receive what Christ offers..
He quotes,
“There is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
“But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored to his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
“For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved” (Alma 42:22–24).
Says he,
“Thus, what is required of us in order to obtain mercy in the day of judgment is simple diligence”.
Oaks, in explaining the “Loving Plan” (makes me cringe), the better way, extends mercy to all, even the enemies of God! However,
Mosiah 2
35. And also, all that has been spoken by our fathers until now. And behold, also, they spake that which was commanded them of the Lord; therefore, they are just and true.
36. And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom's paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved--
37. I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.
38. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
39. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.
Oaks, however, doesn’t seem to agree with this. He says, “The Book of Mormon teaches…But…”! He declares,
The revealing description of those assigned to the lowest of the kingdoms of glory, the telestial, is “he who cannot abide … a terrestrial glory.” That describes those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior.
Mercy for all! We can choose our kingdom of glory and be happy beyond comprehension!
Profile photo for Ray Farmer
Ray Farmer
· Mar 26
SAYS YOU: "Actually, I agree with you on 95% of what you said "
ME: And I thought I was shocked before!
SAYS YOU: "You need to give me a reference for your Elder Oaks citation. One line out of context means nothing to me."
ME: I will contrast the talks by Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification with Oaks Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023, Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022, and Trust in the Lord, October 2019.
Significant are word counts. I will just count mentions out of context, which is important. Faith is mentioned, for example, but faith in what an important distinction. Remember also that I am counting the words in three talks by Oaks and only one talk of Christofferson.
Oaks
Grace 0
Mercy 0
Faith 8
Sacntify 0
Justify 0
Christofferson
Grace 23
Mercy 9
Faith 6
Sanctify 28
Justify 34
Christofferson says "Justification and sanctification are at the center of God’s gracious plan of salvation and are the essence of our witness of the Lord Jesus Christ". And yet Oaks says "we have a unique understanding of our Heavenly Father’s plan" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022) which apparently does not include grace, mercy, sanctification nor justification and justice.
"A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). "...our Heavenly Father’s loving plan" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022) can be explained without reference to Grace, mercy, etc.
"eternal truths....can be fully understood only in the context of our Heavenly Father’s loving plan for all of His children" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022), but can be understood without these key doctrines.
"Through this perspective we see the bearing and nurturing of children as part of the divine plan." (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022),
"From modern revelation, Latter-day Saints have this unique understanding of God’s plan of happiness for His children", (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023).
He talks about "the nature and requirements of each of the three kingdoms in the Father’s plan" (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023), but leaves out Justification and Sanctification and the other basic Christian concepts like grace. Therefore, "God’s plan, founded on eternal truth, requires that exaltation can be attained only through faithfulness to the covenants" (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023). What of Faith in Christ?
"The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become" (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023) and leaves off the most important elements that are needed to become what Father desires us to be.
"we must seek to understand His plan and His commandments" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). "we have a unique understanding of our Heavenly Father’s plan. This gives us a different way of viewing the purpose of mortal life, the divine judgment that follows it, and the ultimate glorious destiny of all of God’s children" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022).
It is a graceless plan.
"A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan for His children. The revealed doctrine of the restored Church of Jesus Christ teaches that all the children of God—with exceptions too limited to consider here—will finally wind up in a kingdom of glory" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). Yet how can this be (we will cover this later) without grace, mercy, sanctification and Justification?
You may say this is assumed. But something like "Justification and sanctification are at the center of God’s gracious plan of salvation and are the essence of our witness of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification), all this is not even given an obligatory honorable mention in three talks that discuss "the Plan"! Those concepts are "are the essence of our witness of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification).
"A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan for His children" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). He witnesses to a different plan, another Gospel.
Christofferson quotes “There is a better way.”, "And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever” (2 Ne. 2:5). "With nothing more, by virtue of the Fall and our own disobedience, the law condemns us to temporal and spiritual death. Law, or justice, is not a pleasant concept when one is condemned by it and “miserable forever.” "There is a better way. That better way is not to deny the law, but to come out from under its condemnation". (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification).
This is the crux of the matter. The whole Gospel plan is about coming out from under the law. It teaches the tension between Mercy and Justice.
“Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
'Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered” (2 Ne. 2:6–7).
Because of 'the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice,” Jesus Christ can satisfy or 'answer the ends of the law” on our behalf. Pardon comes by the grace of Him who has satisfied the demands of justice by His own suffering, 'the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” (1 Pet. 3:18). He removes our condemnation without removing the law. We are pardoned and placed in a condition of righteousness with Him. We become, like Him, without sin. ....We are, in a word, justified." (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification)
Saved by the Laws
For Oaks, we are saved by the laws we choose to obey. "We know from modern revelation that 'all kingdoms have a law given' and that the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to follow in our mortal journey". "God has revealed the eternal laws, ordinances, and covenants that must be observed to develop the godly attributes necessary to realize this divine potential". (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023)
"'He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
'And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
'And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory.'
In other words, the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan". (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022)
"all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory whose laws they can comfortably “abide.” (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023)
"Through revelation, God has revealed the eternal laws, ordinances, and covenants that must be observed to develop the godly attributes necessary to realize this divine potential. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints focuses on these" (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023).
"Those who do not choose “to abide the law of a celestial kingdom” will inherit another kingdom of glory, lesser than the celestial but suited to the laws they have chosen and can comfortably 'abide'.” (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023)
Christofferson, on the other hand, rewards those with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. "Given the magnitude of the gift of grace, we would never suppose, even with all the good we could possibly do in this life, that we had earned it. It is just too great" (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification). But Oaks thinks we can qualify, or earn, this great gift. "Another unique doctrine and practice of the restored Church is the revealed commandments and covenants that offer all the children of God the sacred privilege of qualifying for the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom" (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023). "The mission of the restored Church is to help all the children of God qualify for what God desires as their ultimate destiny" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). "the faithful who keep their covenants will have the opportunity to qualify for every promised blessing" (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). But, insists Christofferson, "With nothing more, by virtue of the Fall and our own disobedience, the law condemns us to temporal and spiritual death".
Oaks's whole "loving plan" is based on "He has revealed that He “glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands.” (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022). but Christofferson corrects this:
“And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end” (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification).
I believe his whole talk is to clarify in this was the proclamation that states, "He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth." He promotes the Gospel principle regarding the need to accept what Jesus offers or else.
"Nephi implies, there is something we can do, something that all who are accountable must do. To have effect, the gift must be accepted: 'For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift' (D&C 88:33).
"Thus, it is not that we earn these gifts, but rather that we choose to seek and accept justification and sanctification. Since the Savior paid for our sins and satisfied justice for us, we become debtors to Him rather than to justice. We must therefore meet the stipulations He has established for forgiveness and cleansing. Otherwise, He withdraws His proffered mediation, and we are left to deal alone with the demands of justice, lacking the means to become pure. One must choose Christ to receive what Christ offers". (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification)
The Book of Mormon speaks of being in the grasp of justice,
Alma 42:14. And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
Christofferson, again, says "He withdraws His proffered mediation, and we are left to deal alone with the demands of justice, lacking the means to become pure" (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification).
He quotes "thus they are restored to his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice. For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved” (Alma 42:22–24) (Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification)
Probation
Christofferson seems to believe that the day of this life is the time we must use to prepare to meet God. He quotes Bruce R. McConkie,
"Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you’re working zealously in this life—though you haven’t fully overcome the world and you haven’t done all you hoped you might do—you’re still going to be saved” (“The Probationary Test of Mortality,” Salt Lake Institute of Religion devotional, 10 Jan. 1982, 12).
Oaks himself even quotes Nelson in this regard.
"President Russell M. Nelson recently wrote: 'Mortal lifetime is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: During this mortal life you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey—those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial—and, therefore, in which kingdom of glory you will live forever. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.' (Divine Love in the Father’s Plan, April 2022)
However, Oaks goes on to contradict these teachings. He knows what the Book of Mormon teaches. He quotes it. Then he gives the big "but"…
"The Book of Mormon teaches that 'this life is the time for [us] to prepare to meet God.' But that challenging limitation to 'this life' was given a hopeful context (at least to some extent for some persons) by what the Lord revealed to President Joseph F. Smith, now recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 138". (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023)
It seems like he was addressing his Nelson quote.
I could go on, but I think this may suffice. I know LDSaints are skilled in jamming square pegs in round holes and you will attempt to do so here. I get it. But if you study the two views carefully as I have done, you will see two different plans.
I hate to say it, but I suspect Christopherson gave this talk so that it could be used to show how Christian LDSaints "really" are. He only hints of "other covenants" beyond that of baptism, other “stipulations”. "we see that the gift of grace or mercy is received as a believer repents, enters into the specified covenants, and receives the Holy Ghost". "covenants (symbolized by water, the principal feature of our FIRST covenant: baptism".(Christofferson, Justification and Sanctification). He may be deceptively holding back the concept of the "Covenant Path". I hope not.
1 Thessalonians 2
2. ....we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God...
3. For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4. But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5. For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others,
2 Corinthians 4
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
I hope this is not what I am seeing here.
SAYS YOU: "I don’t see them preaching two different gospels. I see Elder Christofferson preaching about Salvation in general and President Oaks preaching about exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom."
ME: Let's say that is true. We still find that Oaks' word count is telling:
Grace 0
Mercy 0
Sanctify 0
Justify 0
Can preaching about exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom be completely silent on grace, mercy, sanctification and justification?
It is clear that the plan in the Book of Mormon is so different from the LDSaints for no other reason than that it takes redefining of words depending on the verse to make it fit. If a verse contradicts LDS doctrine, all one has to do is plug in the arbitrary definition that makes it fit. But the Word of God shouldn't have to be handled in such a horrible way. Let's see if we can help:
What you call Unconditional or general salvation the scriptures call Resurrection. Redemption from death. Resurrection is never called salvation.
What you call Conditional or individual salvation the scriptures call Salvation. Redemption from death and hell and the devil, that awful monster.
What you call Salvation in its true and full meaning (true?) the scriptures would call Exaltation if there were such a thing (foreign to the Book of Mormon and Bible. Only God is exalted there)
Apparently the Lord is familiar with these three words and uses them where they fit. Why would He be so imprecise on such a critical issue? Instead,
2 Nephi 31:3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
Interestingly, the Lord employs the opposite manner. Instead of using one word to mean a bunch of completely opposite precepts, He uses multiple words to mean the same thing. For example, in Mosiah 15, the same thing is called the first resurrection (vs 21, 22, 24, 26), dwell with God (vs 23), redeemed (vs 18, 23, 27), eternal life (vs 23), restoration (vs 24), salvation (vs 18,24). The Words of Abinadi interchanges these words, but they all mean the same idea. Therefore, we see that:
Salvation = Eternal Life
First Resurrection = restoration
Redeemed = dwell with God
Any combination of that group of words works.
And, after all,
Doctrine and Covenants 6:13 If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
You would tell me that, although salvation is a good thing, there is a gift greater - exaltation. We see, however, that salvation here, for those who are saved, is dwelling in the Kingdom of God. Abinadi would say that is eternal life.
That it is absolutely needful to play with plain words, by shifting definitions willy-nilly, to be able to hold on to doctrine that is contrary to the teaching, is the work of rogues (with all due respect). If one has such control over definitions, one can go wild and head down many strange roads. Play with the definition of "gender" and who knows what one can come up with. Destort the definition of "equity" and one man's possessions are taken and given to another.
I remember (vaguely) a movie in which some guy was taken by the mob. He was offered the chance to be released or murdered by the toss of dice. The dice had to add up to a certain number or whatever it was exactly. He consented. When the brought out the dice, they didn't have any spots! The mobsters assured him that they had memorized where and how many the spots were.
1 Nephi 13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
He said saved! Well, let's see what Salvation we can plug in here. Well, it can't mean resurrection because everyone will be resurrected and here it is conditional. Can it mean inheriting a kingdom of glory? No, because you don't have to come unto Jesus to get into one of the kingdoms (telestial). You can be an unrepentant enemy and suffer for your own sins! It must mean, in this instance, deification! But "These last records" and those "which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" don't teach that we can be gods. Maybe deification was an idea that The evil church took away from the gospel. Well, that can't be because it says the Book of Mormon "shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them" and there is nothing "plain and precious", that teach anything near deification without a creative and active imagination. I guess I have to go to the Apostate Fathers to see what they have to say!
What a mess. What a mist of darkness! What stumbling due to looking beyond the mark!
President Oaks and Elder Christofferson have preached two different gospels if we believe Christofferson wasn't playing games. Christofferson was in the seventy at the time. Maybe they encouraged him to "wise up".
SAYS YOU: "Have you even read....my book?"
ME: I read several chapters determined to read them all. The experience was stressful and traumatic. I listed my many teaching positions in the church somewhere above. I recognized all of your answers for they were the ones I taught for twenty years. I read my words by reading yours. I now see that I was distorting scriptures and teaching false doctrines. I saw how that I was using twisted logic in my arguments. It caused me great remorse. I told you of wreckage I caused along the way. Reading your book brought all that back.
SAYS YOU: "Evangelical Protestant believe...."
ME: Who cares what Evangelical Protestants believe? Who cares what The Westminster Dictionary says? Who cares what C.S. Lewis believed. who cares what the Apostate Fathers believe? Why all these sources outside of the two sticks that we are told we are to use?
2 Nephi 28:26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Darkened man has multiplied the amount of books with all kinds of uninspired, indeed evil, ideas. Are we to pick through them and find where they accidentally attach to a precept we agree with, accept as truth and reject all else they wrote as uninspired words? You will not agree with everything Evangelical Protestants believe so why pick only what they teach that comes close to what you do? Are they inspired of God? Oh, only in certain few things. According to you, I am an Evangelical Protestants yet you reject most of what I share.
I don't understand how quoting tiny crumbs of men you think in error makes your case. Don't rely on the arm of flesh to make your case. It is unbecoming.
SAYS YOU: "we are children of a loving God"
ME: And so are rocks and trees and raccoons. This does not make them potential gods.
Mosiah 3:8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning...
Alma 11:39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
Your Verses Explored
YOU CITED: Deut. 14:11. YE are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
2. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Observation: You quote out of context. Verse two explains. Ponder,
Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
YOU CITED: Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Observation: Gosh. Psalm 82 is not long and is easy to read the whole thing. He was talking about the corrupt leaders of the nation calling them gods. That's why Jesus read that verse to the corrupt Jews. They knew it was an attack on them. The only sense that they were gods was in this context. I think you know this.
Psalms 82
1. GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
YOU CITED: Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Observation: We become the sons of God which implies we don't start out that way.
Moses 6
65. And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
66. And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67. And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68. Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
YOU CITED: Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
Observation: He is the father of all things He created (see second clause). "[h]e is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are"
YOU CITED: Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Observation: The same was not said of Enos nor Seth nor anyone else in the genealogy. You would say they were sons of God, but only Adam, who was created, was labeled a son.
YOU CITED: Acts 17
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Observation: He was quoting their pagan poets against them, much like I quoted Moses above. A quote does not mean one believes the quote. The pagans believed that and so Paul was able to show that God was not "like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device". Your reasoning would have us believe God is of flesh and blood given we are His offspring.
YOU CITED: Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Observation: And who are these "we"?
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Additionally, those sons are adopted. Nobody adopts his literal sons.
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
We are heirs conditionally. “…as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” and so qualify as heirs.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
YOU CITED: Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Observation: The verse explains itself. Faith in Jesus (unmentioned by Oaks) makes them children of God. The natural man, without faith, is not a child of God but a child of the devil.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
YOU CITED: Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Observation: The "in you all" explains who he was talking about.
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.
He is not "in" the unrighteous and so they will not sit down in His kingdom.
SAYS YOU: "created in his image and likeness"
ME: Does not prove that we are gods. Image and likeness does not imply fingers and toes or potential.
Alma 5:14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
Alma 5:19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?
YOU CITED: Many "image" verses (I read them all).
Observation: Many of them teach that currently we are in the image of God. Does that mean that He has flesh and blood, goes bold, is frequently sick? Are we omnipotent and omniscient? I think Alma 5 is the best explanation.
SAYS YOU: "It also teaches that man occupies a position of pre-eminence in God's creation."
ME: He had dominion over everything until he turned it over to the devil. This was in response to satan who told Adam he could be as God (oh, boy). God let Adam be godlike to show him how ridiculous the idea was. Adam and offspring turned the dominion into a field of blood. So, with this insight,
Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that HE is God;
2 Nephi 12:11 And it shall come to pass that the lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
SAYS YOU: "Psalms 8:4-6 affirms that man was "made a little lower than the angels" (this should actually be translated "gods" since the Hebrew word "Eloheim" was used; see also Ps. 82:1, 6; 97:9)"
ME: So we were made lower than the "gods", all those Eloheim. I thought you said we were gods! I'm so confused! I explained gods in Psalm 82 above.
SAYS YOU: "God commands men to be holy and perfect like himself"
ME: So, once we are perfect we become gods? Well, we can be perfect here. Have we received godhood here? I was under the impression it took ions.
Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
Moroni 10:33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
I have grown weary of this. None of your references hold up. I know you supply a bunch of citations, but thousands of misapplied verses, despite the number, do not make an argument true.
SAYS YOU: "You, my man, are an Evangelical Christian who has accepted the Book of Mormon as doctrine but not the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price"
ME: Actually, I am in a religious no man's land. An Evangelical Christian would reject me as fast as a LDSaint. But you are correct. I reject the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price. I have not decided about the Book of Commandments. The first reason for this rejection, to be followed by others later, was the manner in which those books have been altered for content. How can God speak and then later go back and make corrections? consider,
Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 9, Page 22
And behold, Satan has put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands; and behold I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written; and on this wise the devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work; for he has put it into their hearts to do this....
SAYS YOU: "Deification is what D&C 132 is all about."
ME: That section is all about polygamy. If deification is a subtopic, we find that the path to being a god must pass through multiple wives. That’s a problem, I imagine.
SAYS YOU: "I will ask you what I ask Evangelical Christians. What are the crowns spoken of in the book of Revelation and elsewhere? What do they symbolize?"
ME: Anything I say it symbolizes. My experience is that those who cannot back up their doctrine by plain scriptures fly to Revelations or Daniel where they can make stuff up to support their view. In complete kindness, I found my brothers and sisters among the JW and SDA rely heavily on Revelations and Daniel.
Here is the thing. If we are, indeed, destined to be gods, that would be stupendous news! It would be among the most important things we could possibly learn in this probation. The fact that there is nothing clear cut (my kindness continues) should raise suspicions in regards to this doctrine.
If there is a "gods and godesses" verse that I didn't cover due to my fatigue in this matter, let me know and I will address it.
Here is a sad fact. Although I explained many verses above, perhaps you will agree with the meaning I set forth in but a few. Even if this were the case, you will not go back and edit your book. You will still cling to the belief that a case can be made by multiplying verses and so you will continue to point to references most tenuous at best and horribly wrested at worse.
SAYS YOU: "Gary, you spent 3/4 of your rebuttal saying what I said in bold a few lines later"
ME: Ya know, I don't consider it a waste of time. I enjoy putting down clearly my thoughts whether they are read and appreciated or not. I try to convince myself that I am creating a copy and paste library like yours where all I have to do is plug in my compositions in whatever discussions occur and be done with it without much thought. It never works. Although I have such a library, I always end up writing completely original posts.
I never think it is a waste of time. Composing these well-considered and well documented comments is a form of pondering.
Anyway, my comment under consideration was begun with the purpose of actually looking up every single referene you supplied, protoing that we are also "only begotton sons". Those that I observed before I got exhausted were shown to be misused and dstorted. I now regret that I didn't get to the bold portion before I zoned out.
Let’s Try again!
SAYS YOU: "When I put something in bold type, that’s what I want you to read and reply to that part:"
ME: I seriously regret this. I am sorry.
SAYS YOU: "The scriptures further affirm that the righteous at his coming, will not only inherit all things..."
ME: This does not mean the righteous will be gods. It just means we get all God's things. I can inherit my dad’s estate and yet not become the lawyer he was when he was amassing it.
SAYS YOU: "....but will be like the Lord"
ME: And what, exactly, is God like? I see this saying that
We Will Be As Pure, Blameless And Spotless (sanctified, perfect)
Alma 13:12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God,
1 Nephi 12:11 And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld three generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him.
3 Nephi 19:25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Alma 5:48 ....the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.
In other words, when we see the glory of God and Jesus, and we will receive the same glorious characteristics, such as,
Alma 9:26 And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers.
2 Nephi 21:2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
Alma 26:35 Now have we not reason to rejoice? Yea, I say unto you, there never were men that had so great reason to rejoice as we, since the world began; yea, and my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things, and he is a merciful Being
Moses 6:61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
John 17:26 ....that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
SAYS YOU: "becoming one with both God and Christ"
ME: We are talking unity, not godhood. John 17:22-3 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
Every missionary knows this is talking about “unity of purpose”.
SAYS YOU: "receive of his glory"
ME: His "goodness"
1 Nephi 1:14 O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness,
2 Nephi 26:28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness?
2 Nephi 26:33 ....he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness;
Jacob 1:7 Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest,
Mosiah 27:22 ....that the eyes of the people might be opened to see and know of the goodness and glory of God.
SAYS YOU: "We are also informed that the righteous will reign forever with them upon their throne"
ME: As your completion continues, "as "kings and priests unto God and his Father", not as gods.
SAYS YOU: "What do you think becoming one with both God and Christ and reigning forever with them upon their throne as "kings and priests unto God and his Father" means?"
ME: We will serve God the Father as "kings and priests unto God"
Jacob and Polygamy
SAYS YOU: "Jacob 2:24–30 is clear and it does not contradict D&C 132."
Some have pointed out that this polygamy, which the LORD calls whoredom, might be allowed, citing this verse:
Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
This is a total wresting of that scripture!
Background
Some whore-mongering Nephites were desirous to have multiple wives. They sought to excuse themselves citing the practice of Solomon and David:
Jacob 2:23 …. they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
Not only were they using Solomon and David to excuse themselves, but they excused the practice, claiming that all they wanted to do was to “raise up seed onto the Lord”. If you were to put quote marks in Jacob 2:30, it would read: For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, "raise up seed unto me", I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
The LORD wanted to raise up a righteous branch unto himself. Therefore He did command how to do it already. In fact, in order to raise a righteous branch, He took Lehi's family AWAY from a polygamous culture so that a righteous branch can be developed. No one reads this:
Jacob 2:25. Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I HAVE LED THIS PEOPLE FORTH OUT OF THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, by the power of mine arm, THAT I MIGHT RAISE UP UNTO ME A RIGHTEOUS BRANCH from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26. Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28. For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
That whoreish Jerusalem society was soon destroyed after Lehi left.
Nephi and Brothers
Nephi and brothers were to leave Jerusalem for the very purpose to raise up seed unto the Lord.
1 Nephi 7:1 ....the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.
Think about it for a moment. If the Lord wanted to raise seed unto himself starting with the sons of Lehi, would he not have them find a boatload of fertile women to take along? If He thought polygamy was a great way to raise seed, this would be the time to "command" it. Instead, they found a family with five daughters (not 50). there was one daughter for each of the sons of Lehi and one for Zorom who was encouraged to come along to the promised land.
1 Nephi 16:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
8. And thus my father had fulfilled all the commandments of the Lord which had been given unto him....
They were promised if they would live righteously they would "prosper", that is, multiply:
1 Nephi 2:20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper,
One wife with one man was the pattern that Lehi established. furthermore, Lehi commanded monogamy outright to his sons that were to raise the righteous seed.
Jacob 2:34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments (one wife) were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before….
The Lamanites rejected Polygamy. They remembered the commandment given by their fathers that they should have no more than one wife. This made them more righteous than the whore-mongering Nephites.
Jacob 3:5. Behold, the Lamanites your brethren....are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father--that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
6. And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.
7. Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children....
How well did the Lamanites multiply despite being monogamous?
Jarom 1:6 And they were scattered upon much of the face of the land, and the Lamanites also. And they were exceedingly more numerous than were they of the Nephites....
How about the monogamous Nephites?
Mosiah 2:2 And there were a great number, even so many that they did not number them; for they had multiplied exceedingly and waxed great in the land.
We see that the Lord would not command polygamy because he needed to raise a population. He obviously can raise a righteous seed without resorting to abominable whoredoms.
The Mind of the Lord
Let’s try to get into the mind of God to discover some of His thoughts and feelings regarding multiple wives.
Jacob 2:28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms [in context polygamy and concubines] are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
Jacob 2:31. For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32. And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33. For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old [referencing David and Solomon], saith the Lord of Hosts.
34. And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
35. Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
With those strong feelings, would God really command this practice? Serious. Can you see the Lord saying “I want to raise up a righteous seed unto me. So go ahead and commit whoredoms and abominations and break the hearts your tender wives so that their sobs will ascend. It is worth all the tears that I may have a righteous branch”.
And how well did polygamy do in creating a righteous branch? These polygamists would bring their kids unto destruction by their bad examples and they would commit a heap of sins.
Jacob 3:10. Wherefore, ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of the example that ye have set before them; and also, remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children unto destruction, and their sins be heaped upon your heads at the last day.
Where would the practice of polygamy lead?
Jacob 3:11. O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.
Lets put polygamy in the same category as…
Jacob 3:12. And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them.
Still Excusing Themselves!
Oddly, despite the above plain and precious teachings, when polygamy was introduced among the LDSaints, David and Solomon were cited!
Doctrine and Covenants 132:1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines--
Doctrine and Covenants 132:38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
By the way, LDSaints still believe in polygamy. They just don’t practice it at the moment. President Nelson could announce today that now is the time to restore the practice and off we would go!
Adam and Eve the type of Jesus and the Church
Everyone knows that Adam had one wife, Eve. Read this carefully:
Genesis 2:21. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22. And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Now pay close attention to this. Paul will quote it,
24. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
God took but one rib. The two would constitute one flesh.
Paul saw the type and shadow in these verses of Christ and the Church. Read the following with care and especially the last verse: [trigger warning to the sisters]
Ephesians 5:22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29. …even as the Lord the church:
30. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
One Lord, One Church
Now, let's assume for a moment that the LDSaints are correct that there is only one true church and they are it. If a man would have more than one wife, there would be more than one church, keeping in mind Ephesians 5. But we see that this just isn't true and would be rejected by the LDSaints.
Old Testament Polygamy
Eventually, LDSaints will point out that many Old Testament good guys had many wives. This proves nothing. Think of the Lord's teaching on divorce.
Mark 10.2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4. And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matthew 19 adds some insight.
8. He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
It is easy to see that "they twain shall be one flesh", that is two, man and wife. That is as it was from the beginning.
SAYS YOU: "[That section is all about polygamy] Many people believe that, but it’s actually a misinterpretation of that section. Plural marriage is not required for deification."
ME: Well, if the section was only about the delightful view of monogamy, why was it kept such a big top secret? Why would Emma give Hyrum "severe talking to" (HC, 5:32-33). Why would she burn it up? Maybe she didn't like verse 54, "And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law". Why did they wait until a special conference in August 1852 before Elder Orson Pratt would read the revelation (as edited) to the congregation? Why? Because the revelation was all about polygamy. Look how the revelation (as we have it) starts out:
Doctrine and Covenants 132:1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines--
And then it goes on to say those who don't live that law, "he shall be damned". To LDSaints that means that they cannot progress toward godhood.
3. Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4. For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5. For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6. And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
Finally, It is unwise to hold Old Testament Saints to Christian standards.
SAYS YOU: " Just about half raised their hands. That was the last I wondered whether polygamy had produced a righteous posterity."
ME: I wonder how many would have raised their hands if this leader asked who came from broken families. A number of hands would not have proved that broken families is a great way to raise a righteous posterity. God can do great things with bad, even evil things.
SAYS YOU: "As to deification, I don’t really want to try to prove it to you. It was taught and believed by the early Christians. Eastern Orthodox Christians still teach it and so do Catholics in their Catechism."
ME: Oh, great. That proves it for sure! What did the Apostate Fathers have to say? They seem to have adopted the view of the Empire and stuck with monogamy.
SAYS YOU: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [to have more than one wife]; "
ME: And yet LDSaints will insist JS didn't have "relations" with his wives, especially the young 'uns or those with whom he practiced polyandry. So, your God will command LDSaints to practice polygamy and polyandry to raise a righteous seed, but....well, THAT does not add up. Did polygamy and polyandry come with immaculate conceptions? Did Joseph raise a righteous seed?
SAYS YOU: "Joseph Smith....selected righteous Saints to practice plural marriage"
ME: Yes, wives of other "righteous saints". His selection was careful.
SAYS YOU: "He said he’d rather die than take another wife."
ME: And, while a Scout Master, I would complain to my wife that it was rough taking a vacation to go backpacking in the Adirondacks and fishing and canoeing and all those that sucked up my weekends and vacations. "I hate it, dear, but I absolutely have to do it. It's my calling".
SAYS YOU: "I am not of the opinion that polygamy will ever be required again since the Church is now 17 million strong"
ME: Small percentage of the US. 2%? Maybe you guys should get to work. Lots of single sisters, you know.
Ah, the Terrestrial Kingdom. Whatever you call it, if Jesus is there I want to be there because the Father will be there with Him along with all faithful Christians from the beginning of time to the end. Perhaps there will be others who are flying around the Universe figuring out how they can become gods without faith, grace, sanctification or justification (Perhaps that will be their eternal punishment. Satan will continue just where he started, eternally taunting them with shrieks of “You shall be as God! You shall be as God”). Not me. Others will be trying to cross the gulf that can’t be crossed to get to hell on a rescue mission. Perhaps that will be their eternal punishment. I, rather, want to stay in the light forever.
I think we have exhausted these topics here.
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Ray Farmer
· Sat
SAYS YOU: "Nephi's vision...I think we fulfill all three of these prophetic descriptions."
ME: I really can't tell if you are just gaslighting me.
Nephi was seeing "the Church of the Lamb of God" (1 Nephi 14:10). Those are the true saints, as you pointed out.
1 Nephi 14:12 ....I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
You assume that these saints are the LDSaints. However, the fewness in number is caused by "the wickedness of the great whore". Sadly, the great Whore poses no impediment to the LDSaints. Let me explain.
First of all, the Book of Mormon teaches us that there are only two Churches.
1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
We know that one church is the of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. We also know that the church of the devil, which isn't the church of the Lamb, was formed for a single purpose,
1 Nephi 14:3 ....great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell-
1 Nephi 14:13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
1 Nephi 14:17 ...the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil...
Bad guys. And yet we see your prophet and apostles chasing after this Mother of Harlots and fellow travelers, atheistic communists. We see him flying over to the Vatican for a grinning photo op with the Pope. Additionally, socialism and communism is there to dig a pit for the saints of the of the Lamb. Yet we see Nelson kissing up to the NAACP, a pro communist group that supports abortion and riots, giving them $10,000,000.00.
(Amos Brown, leader of NAACP)
Do you think he is there calling them to repentance? If he did, they would tell him to hit the road and never come back. Instead, they stand and grin and hug and these children of the devil take his money. These groups were "founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell" and yet your prophet cozys up and gives them money!
2 Corinthians 6
14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Every step in this regard tells that the LDSaints as a group is just a part of the whore.
Here is another feature.
....the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
The world mixes up LDSaint doctrine with the Book of Mormon. People, especially real Christians, reject it without reading it because they think LDS doctrine is derived from that sacred book. They think it teaches deification, degrees of glory, mother in heaven, polygamy, Adam God, Blood atonement and every other "unique" doctrine of the LDSaints. No wonder they reject the Book! Just a slight look at anti-Book posts here on Quora reflect this confusion.
LDS Professor Terryl L. Givens in his popular book put out by Oxford University Press entitled By the Hand of Mormon said, "It has often been pointed out, however, that those beliefs most commonly associated with Mormonism are nowhere to be found in that text. Those expecting an exposition of peculiarly Mormon doctrine will be disappointed. (2002, p. 186)
But who would expect that? Instead, the world goes on rejecting the Book of Mormon because of this wickedness. No wonder the number of the saints of the Church of the Lamb are so few in number! No wonder those who actually carry the Book of Mormon find it incomplete and written with a mistaken view of the Fulness of the Gospel of the Lamb! All this LDS doctrine is in it no where to be found! LDSaints prefer their Living Oracles and Ancient Apostate Fathers where these doctrines are taught in abundance. The world feels free to reject it because they were misled.
Seeing Living Oracles buddy-buddy with the Whore can lead to the conclusion that the LDSaints are just like them, just another group. And they would be right.
Presiding
SAYS YOU: "D&C 76:77. Only the Celestial Kingdom will be presided over by the Father. (D&C 76:52) The Terrestrial Kingdom will be presided over by Jesus Christ (D&C 76:77). The Telestial Kingdom will be presided over by the Holy Ghost. (D&C 76:86)"
ME: What a mess. The three are one. Where one is the others are found. But let's explore the Holy Ghost in the Telestial Kingdom for the time I have left to devote here.
We are supposed to believe that the Telestial Kingdom is full of some pretty bad guys,
Doctrine and Covenants 76:103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:101 [They]....received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
We learn that even those who reject all of this and are unrepentant after being taught the gospel by righteous elders in the "spirit Prison" will be there!
"Those [in the spirit prison] who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory".
Hell
These are the people you think will have the presence of the Holy Ghost!
The Book of Mormon says, however,
Alma 34:35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
What can be more clear!
Let's look at Mormon 9. Remember that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are each "a holy and just God",,
3. ....Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?
4. Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.
5. For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.
Yet, you would have me believe that those who die in their sins, enemies to God, those who lived with no standards of righteousness, will be able to abide the presence of the Holy Ghost, be glorified and be happy beyond all comprehension! You think the natural man, who live contrary to the nature of happiness, the nature of God, will be restored to some type of happiness. This is impossible! Alma’s son was under the same delusion. His dad had to explain it. He starts out “And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing”. Boy! Isn’t that the truth. Looking at you, brother. He continues,
Alma 41 (don’t skim over this because you think you knw what it says)
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
Yet you would have me believe that those who persisted in their carnal state until death will be restored from the gull of bitterness to joy in a kingdom of glory! Paul has words for you.
1 Corinthians 6
9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5
19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Mosiah 16:5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
I know what you are thinking. You think the Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom, which the natural man who dies in his sins will not inherit. But the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of heaven, His Kingdom and the Father's Kingdom are all used interchangeably, even in the same chapter! For example,
Alma 5
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
Growth
You will remember with me the growth of the Church in the 1970's. The growth was supposed to be a sign of the truthfulness of the Church. Now that the Church has slowed in growth, now "few" is the sign of the true Church.
I Conclude
The above teachings presented to you is of some comfort to me. It is obvious that Joseph and Sidney did not write the Book of Mormon. They seem to have been completely ignorant of the doctrines of that Holy Book.
Oh boy. I know you, as a group, like your "personal, though well considered, opinions", especially those that pretend to be the truth spoken by the revelation at the time they were uttered, but I think your explanation of the Great and Abominable Church is a bunch of opinions not well considered. I know that missionary churches have to be tolerant to avoid persecution, but such worldly churches, lacking in the boldness required among the Holy Order of the Son of God, will be weighed in the balance and will be found wanting.
All your stumbling trying to ID the Great and Abominable is answered in one verse, uncited by you.
1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
You say that the Church of the devil has nothing to do with "the various divisions and subdivisions of Protestant Christendom combined as such church; nor the Greek Catholic church; nor the Buddhist sects; nor the followers of Confucius; nor the followers of Mohammed; nor would I like to designate even the societies formed by deists and atheists".
If we were to allow this opinion, that all of those groups are various parts of the Church of the Lamb since they are not, according to you, the church of the devil! The angel was specific. You are either of the Church of the Lamb or the Church of the devil. Your way is broad that leads to destruction.
The Broad Way
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets….”.
One of the ways explained by Jesus to identify false prophets is their insistence in preaching a wide, broad way, a loving plan that saves all. Your opinions here expand that way until it is not only broad, but exceedingly broad and wide. Oaks turns this completely on it its head by saying all are saved "except for so few they won't be considered here". Jesus says beware of those who preach this broad way. It doesn’t matter how “loving”. They are false prophets.
I repeat, "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth".
Your definition and opinion (for you promote it here) is too narrow. "Most likely, this 'church' is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. The only definition needed is the one that the angel supplied, "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God". Obviously, someone can be chaste and an iconoclast and still be a part of the whore inasmuch as they "belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God". This is so plain and precious one has to be so dedicated to a personal, though well considered, opinion that they are blinded to this plain and precious truth.
J.C Ryle definition of the world will also apply to the Church of the Devil.
....people who think only, or chiefly, of this world's things, and neglect the world to come,--the people who are always thinking more of earth than of heaven, more of time than of eternity, more of the body than of the soul, more of pleasing man than of pleasing God. It is of them and their ways, habits, customs, opinions, practices, tastes, aims, spirit, and tone, that I am speaking when I speak of "the world." This is the world from which Saint Paul tells us to "Come out and be separate."
JC ryle makes the distinction, which concords with the Book of Mormon and Bible, between the wheat (Church of the Lamb) and the Chaff (Church of the devil).
"Who are the wheat in the world?" This is a point which demands special consideration. The Wheat (I will exchange wheat for Saints of the Church of the Lamb).
The [Saints of the Church of the Lamb] means all men and women who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ,--all who are led by the Holy Spirit,--all who have felt themselves sinners, and fled for refuge to the salvation offered in the Gospel,--all who love the Lord Jesus and live to the Lord Jesus, and serve the Lord Jesus,--all who have taken Christ for their only confidence, and the scriptures for their only guide, and regard sin as their deadliest enemy, and look to heaven as their only home. All such, of every Church, name, nation, people, and tongue,--of every rank, station, condition, and degree,--all such are [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]"
Show me people of this kind anywhere, and I know what they are. I know not that they and I may agree in all particulars, but I see in them the handiwork of the King of kings, and I ask no more. I know not whence they came, and where they found their religion; but I know where they are going, and that is enough for me. They are the children of my Father in heaven. They are [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]"
All such, though sinful and vile, and unworthy in their own eyes, are the precious part of mankind. They are the sons and daughters of God the Father. They are the delight of God the Son. They are the habitation of God the Spirit. The Father beholds no iniquity in them:--they are the members of His dear Son's mystical body: in Him He sees them, and is well-pleased. The Lord Jesus discerns in them the fruit of His own travail and work upon the cross, and is well satisfied. The Holy Ghost regards them as spiritual temples which He Himself has reared, and rejoices over them. In a word, they are the [Saints of the Church of the Lamb]. (Practical Religion)
Who are the Chaff (I will exchange chaff for Church of the Devil)
The [church of the devil] means all men and women who have no saving faith in Christ, and no sanctification of the Spirit, whosoever they may be. Some of them perhaps are infidels, and some are formal Christians. Some are sneering Sadducees, and some self-righteous Pharisees. Some of them make a point of keeping up a kind of Sunday religion, and others are utterly careless of everything except their own pleasure and the world. But all alike, who have the two great marks already mentioned--"no faith and no sanctification",--all such are [church of the devil]. From Paine and Voltaire to the dead Churchman who can think of nothing but outward ceremonies,--from Julian and Porphyry to the unconverted admirer of sermons in the present day,--all, all are standing in one rank before God: all, all are of the [church of the devil]"
They bring no glory to God the Father. "They honour not the Son, and so do not honour the Father that sent Him." (John v. 23.) They neglect that mighty salvation which countless millions of angels admire. They disobey that Word which was graciously written for their learning. They listen not to the voice of Him who condescended to leave heaven and die for their sins. They pay no tribute of service and affection to Him who gave them "life, and breath, and all things." And therefore God takes no pleasure in them. He pities them, but He reckons them no better than [church of the devil].
Clearly, one can belong to an incorporated church and still not be saints of the church of the Lamb.
Alma 5:14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church [the incorporated church]--not into the church of God [the Church of the Lamb], but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God --
One can also belong to a corrupt church and yet be a follower of Christ.
2 Nephi 28:14 ...because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
Again, the Church of the Lamb of God is not an incorporated organization. Neither is the Church of the devil. The Church of the Lamb, the Family of God filled with adopted sons and daughters of God, is the Body of Christ. They are found in all incorporated organizations. I bet you know members of other incorporated religious organizations that belong to this body of Christ. I bet you know members of your incorporated organization who are of the church of the devil.
As a side note, we see, because we all just "know in part", that despite sincerity, we are little more than "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine". We should not expect all to agree until Jesus brings forth Zion.
Mosiah 15:29 Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
However, those who are born again will be pretty close in agreement on the main, essential points of Christianity, unincorporated.
Alma 36:26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.
I guess that is why you place me among the Evangelicals. On the essentials we “see eye to eye”.
Considering the above, we can see why we are warned against those who claim their incorporated church is exclusively the Lord's.
2 Nephi 28:3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--
I suspect that you are a part of the Church of the Lamb of God (are you shocked?). You, like me and other members of the Church of the Lamb, may be blinded by the craftyness of men.
Doctrine and Covenants 123:12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men....who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it".
This is unfortunate in your case because you, and few others, have been given the truth and you should know where to find it.
1 Nephi 13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles [Book of Mormon], shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [Bible], and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them...
Such as it is. You seem to look beyond what was written and so have pride in men, your Living Oracles.
1 Corinthians 4:6 (New International Version)
6 ....learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
It is taught that all sects, parties, and denominations may have “humble followers of Christ” among them. They are of the Church of the Lamb of God. It is taught that all sects, parties, and denominations have "tares", those who are the children of the wicked one, of his church.
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
SAYS YOU: "I see the "great and abominable church " as those who fight against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
ME: As we can see, this is a frightfully narrow view.
SAYS YOU: "In as much as you are fighting against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you have made yourself part of that Great and Abominable Church. Is that a shock?"
ME: I am not fighting against the LDSaints. I am discussing doctrinal issues. You crack me up. But I am not shocked that you would say that I was a part of the Church of the devil. Not at all. In fact, I find it a joy to read that!
Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
SAYS YOU: "You are wrong to say Latter-day Saints, the Roman Catholic Church and the NAACP are part of the great and abominable church."
ME: As you can see, I don't believe what you assert. There may be saints of the Church of the Lamb among them.
Doctrine and Covenants 18:20 Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.
I will not cozy up to organizations that preach doctrines of devils. Not even for a photo op.
SAYS YOU: "By rejecting that portion of God’s word found in the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as well as modern revelations to Latter-day Saint prophets, you have rejected that portion of God’s word that would help you stay on the covenant path"
ME: Of course I don't reject all of the precepts taught in those books. And you don't accept all of them, either. But we should compare any precept with what is taught in the Book of Mormon and Bible.
2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines....
A good reason to reject those books you cite, the reason I do and must, is because they have been altered as the years went on. You don't find that suspect, that God can say and then unsay, but that is reason enough for me. Didn't Joseph or God tell us what is the source of this idea that the Word of God can be altered in this manner?
Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.
The only safe course is to reject whole books that have been altered and then ponder any principle left in those books that could be true ideas when filtered through the sticks. I hate to say it, but one of my all time favorite set of verses is found in the....wait for it...the Doctrine and Covenants.
Doctrine and Covenants 45
3. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him--
4. Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.
6. Hearken, O ye people of my church, and ye elders listen together, and hear my voice while it is called today, and harden not your hearts;
Oaks would change it to read that Jesus says "Father, behold how these temple worthy members obeyed Celestial laws, that they may be glorified and exalted". And so ye elders of the church have hardened their hearts.
I will read and ponder your links by and by. My time was severely limited and I couldn't touch on many important considerations.
1 Nephi 17:41 ....and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.
Happy Easter!
—— Bonus. Feel free to disregard —-
Wesley set down what are the basic doctrines of those who would qualify as Saints of the Church of the Lamb of God.
Is thy heart right with God? Dost thou believe his being and his perfections? his eternity, immensity, wisdom, power? his justice, mercy, and truth? Dost thou believe that he now "upholdeth all things by the word of his power?" and that he governs even the most minute, even the most noxious, to his own glory, and the good of them that love him? hast thou a divine evidence, a supernatural conviction, of the things of God? Dost thou "walk by faith not by sight?" looking not at temporal things, but things eternal?
Dost thou believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, "God over all, blessed for ever?" Is he revealed in thy soul? Dost thou know Jesus Christ and him crucified? Does he dwell in thee, and thou in him? Is he formed in thy heart by faith? having absolutely disclaimed all thy own works, thy own righteousness, hast thou "submitted thyself unto the righteousness of God, which is by faith in Christ Jesus? Art thou "found in him, not having thy own righteousness, but the righteousness which is by faith?" And art thou, through him, "fighting the good fight of faith, and laying hold of eternal life?"
Is thy faith -filled with the energy of love? Dost thou love God (I do not say "above all things," for it is both an unscriptural and an ambiguous expression, but) "with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength?" Dost thou seek all thy happiness in him alone? And dost thou find what thou seekest? Does thy soul continually "magnify the Lord, and thy spirit rejoice in God thy Savior?" having learned "in everything to give thanks, dost thou find "it is a joyful and a pleasant thing to be thankful?" Is God the center of thy soul, the sum of all thy desires? Art thou accordingly laying up thy treasure in heaven, and counting all things else dung and dross? hath the love of God cast the love of the world out of thy soul? Then thou art "crucified to the world;" thou art dead to all below; and thy "life is hid with Christ in God."
Art thou employed in doing, "not thy own will, but the will of him that sent thee" --of him that sent thee down to sojourn here awhile, to spend a few days in a strange land, till, having finished the work he hath given thee to do, thou return to thy Father's house? Is it thy meat and drink "to do the will of thy Father which is in heaven?" Is thine eye single in all things? always fixed on him? always looking unto Jesus? Dost thou point at him in whatever thou doest? in all thy labor, thy business, thy conversation? aiming only at the glory of God in all, "whatever thou doest, either in word or deed, doing it all in the name of the Lord Jesus; giving thanks unto God, even the Father, through him?"
Does the love of God constrain thee to serve him with fear, to "rejoice unto him with reverence?" Art thou more afraid of displeasing God, than either of death or hell? Is nothing so terrible to thee as the thought of offending the eyes of his glory? Upon this ground, dost thou "hate all evil ways," every transgression of his holy and perfect law; and herein "exercise thyself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward man?"
Is thy heart right toward thy neighbor? Dost thou love as thyself, all mankind, without exception? "If you love those only that love you, what thank have ye?" Do you "love your enemies?" Is your soul full of good-will, of tender affection, toward them? Do you love even the enemies of God, the unthankful and unholy? Do your bowels yearn over them? Could you "wish yourself" temporally "accursed" for their sake? And do you show this by "blessing them that curse you, and praying for those that despitefully use you, and persecute you?"
Do you show your love by your works? While you have time as you have opportunity, do you in fact "do good to all men," neighbors or strangers, friends or enemies, good or bad? Do you do them all the good you can; endeavoring to supply all their wants; assisting them both in body and soul, to the uttermost of your power? --If thou art thus minded, may every Christian say, yea, if thou art but sincerely desirous of it, and following on till thou attain, then "thy heart is right, as my heart is with thy heart."
SAYS YOU: "I’m done....I am wasting time.... Seems like I said this before at least once."
ME: Yes, you seem to say this every time you tire of avoiding the main points I make. I must assume it is because they are unanswerable.
SAYS YOU: "You are a wolf in sheep’s clothing"
ME: I think this is new.
SAYS YOU: "Please don’t bother replying"
ME: Well, there are many who read our interesting exchanges and so I will reply for their benefit and enjoyment. Future generations will read these and marvel as well.
SAYS YOU: "Why are you quoting an apostate Anglican bishop and an apostate Protestant Reformer to me now?"
ME: Gee. The first time I quote outside your living oracles and scriptures in this entire conversation you make it a thing to be noted. You should, however, take note that all the points I make are almost exclusively from the Book of Mormon. This you must acknowledge.
I did not quote heroic bishops or reformers (you did not mention Wesley) but only to express what I have studied and found reliable. I find that they say what the Scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon, say. This is not what you do. You quote Apostate Fathers to teach what the scriptures do not. The difference is subtle but you will pick up the difference.
Additionally, the words I shared are inspiring and inspired. You should see that your incorporated organization does not have a monopoly on revelation and insight from God. This would be clear to you just by thumbing through your hymnal. Most of the lyrics are written by poets outside of your prophets and apostles, some during your Great Apostacy when, supposedly, there was no Spirit of God. Surprisingly, even your new logo is derived from a sculpture not done by one without the Holy Ghost! Apparently you see this as you quote CS Lewis and others outside your circle.
If you wish, I can add chapter and verse to all the quotes I put forth. I was hoping that you would have an open mind as you read them and supplied references mentally as you considered.
Gethsemane
This is an odd doctrine unsustainable from scripture, that Jesus paid for our sins the garden. We see clearly that Jesus was slain upon the cross for the sins of the world.
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
3 Nephi 11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
Nobody was slain in the garden of Gethsemane. I would be easy to convince if you can show me anything in the Book of Mormon and Bible that teaches Gethsemane.
You may be thinking this,
7. And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
but two verses down we read,
9. And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
This verse does not mention the garden. "[His] anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people" seems to be an attribute that followed Him throughout His mortal experience. It says nothing about paying the ranson or for the remission of sins. Consider,
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Read that and ascribe anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
LDSaints come up with some unique idea and then cling to it from the day it is expressed and forever and ever until members think it is scriptural.
I know you may point to Doctrine and Covenants 19. but of all the early revelations, that one is pretty blasphemous. It portrays Jesus fooing us that when Jesus taught "eternal punishment" he was just playing word games to make an impression!
Doctrine and Covenants 19:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
Sorry. 2 Nephi 9:16 ....they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
Sorry. Mosiah 2:39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.
Sorry. Mosiah 3:25 a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return;
Sorry. Mosiah 3:27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever.
Sorry. Mosiah 5:5 ....that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment,
Sorry. Alma 12:17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever....they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction...
Sorry. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Sorry. Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As multitudious as those citations are (and thereis more) you would have me believe that God was just playing "more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men". In other words, He was just trying to scare us with a false impression.
Please. Delete this sction and don't use it for any purpose whatsoever, especially Gethsemane!