Hick on My Graphic

Hello! I want to run my new graphic past you. I think it is an accurate depiction of what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. It explains everything! I couldn’t add another thing to it:

Michael Hickenbotham

Yes, that’s an appropriate illustration for what is taught only in 1 Corinthians 15:35–49 Gary. That’s likely the way Protestants and possibly Catholics as well might illustrate those verses. It seems to me that it lacks explanatory value though. It seems to indicate that all 3 glories in the upper right box will have Celestial bodies and heaven will consist of only one place as you probably believe.

The above ignores the further light and knowledge found in D&C 76 and 88. It also ignores the Bible verses I cited in answer number 75 in my book: 2 Cor. 12:2 and 1 Kin. 8:27; Matt. 13:8; 25:21, 23, 34; John 14:2; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 5:10. It also ignores the writings of early Christians:

The very early Church Father, Papias [A.D. 160], who (according to the first-hand account of Polycarp)(Against Heresies, V.33:4) had it personally from John (Jean Danielou, The Theology of Jewish Christianity, p. 46), writes that "as the Elders say, Those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendor of the city [Rev. 22:14]; for everywhere the Savior will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see him [Rev. 22:4]. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty fold, and that of those who produce thirty fold (Matt. 13:8); for the fruit will be taken up into heaven; the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, In my house are many mansions ; for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling place, even as his word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each is or shall be worthy" (Relics of the Elders 5)....

Other early Church writers also taught that there were "three degrees of glory,” for example, Irenaeus [A.D. 178], who says in Against Heresies: "The Elders, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that (the thirty fold, the sixty fold, and the hundredfold) are the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature" (V.36:2)... (Ancient Texts and Mormonism, pp. 43-44).

On this same subject, Hugh Nibley notes that Peter explained to Clement that the Lord "has commanded us to go forth to preach, and to invite you to the supper of the heavenly king... and to give you your wedding garments, that is to say, the privilege of being baptized... you are to regard this as the first step of three, which step brings forth thirty commandments, as the second step does sixty, and the third one hundred, as we shall explain to you more fully at another time" (Clementine Recognitions, III, 34). This reminds one of Paul's rationing of the teaching to the saints (Acts 15:23, 29), but the three steps are significant.... The very early Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ opens with the admonition that the document is to come into the hands "only of proven saints who dwell in the third order (or level) next to the mansion of my Father who sent me" (Test. Dom. n. J. Christi, Rahmani, ed., I, xviii (p. 22f)) (Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, pp. 110-111).

From the above comments by the First Fathers, it is apparent that the doctrine of "degrees of glory" was taught and recorded by the apostles though the surviving statements in the Bible, like 1 Corinthians 15, seem to many today not to convey this meaning. Though the Bible itself does not contain a clear description of the mansions within God's house (John 14:2), reason should convince even the skeptic that a just God could not divide all mankind into two general categories, one destined for heaven and the other destined for hell. Truly, the LDS view is a more just solution befitting a loving Heavenly Father. Joseph Smith once stated "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that was written on the subject" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 324). Truly he knew more than any Bible scholars on the subject. That Joseph Smith was instrumental in restoring these truths without any knowledge of the above statements, testifies of his divine calling as a prophet of God.

Gary

About the Graphic

SAYS YOU: "It seems to me that it lacks explanatory value though." ;

ME: The explanation is given in the reference at the bottom of the page. Should someone read the scriptures cited while viewing the graphic one would not need further explanation.

SAYS YOU: "It seems to indicate that all 3 glories in the upper right box will have Celestial bodies and heaven will consist of only one place as you probably believe."

ME: Paul is not talking about heaven. He is talking only about the substance of mortal (terrestrial, of the earth) bodies and contrasting that with resurrected (celestial, of the heavens) bodies. He is saying that bodies are of different substances even among bodies here on earth (terrestrial). Therefore, he intimates, why would anyone think that resurrected bodies would not be of a different, that is, a spiritual, substance.

As far as the glories depicted in the upper right, go, you use 1 Cor 15 to show that there are three “glories” or Kingdoms. You obviously miss Paul's point and, therefore, to make these verses fit your doctrine, you have to imagine and create a telestial glory. “Telestial” simply is not found in the verses.

You seem to point to the three glories Paul used in his illustration but, as seen on the graphic, glories do not correspond to your interpretation. If we were to teach your doctrine by what Paul actually wrote, the three glories would be solar, lunar and stellar. But we know he was not talking about eternal reward. He was simply answering the fool's question, "how are the dead raised? and with what body do they come?"

But lets look at your citation (see below) of the apostate whom Mr. Danielou thinks Papias (A.D. 160!!) taught who got it from Polycarp who got it from John the Beloved,

"But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty fold, and that of those who produce thirty fold".

That would explain the solar, lunar and stellar glories if we squint at 1 Corinthians 15 and my gorgeous graphic. But who cares what Mr. Danielou says. John the Beloved didn’t write anything about “those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty fold, and that of those who produce thirty fold” (Matt. 13:8)

John didn’t teach anything like what Polycarp claims to have gotten from him. Those who go beyond the “Come Follow Me” will know this is true. They will have read:

John 3

15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Also, the Apostate Irenaeus (A.D. 178!!) Says, "The Elders, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that (the thirty fold, the sixty fold, and the hundredfold) are the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature".

You quote this apostate even though you do not believe "they advance through steps of this nature". Or do you now believe a Telestial inhabitant can advance to obtain the Celestial Kingdom? Ah, well.

Hugh Nibley (“White Salamander” Nibley who can explain anything) notes that Peter explained to Clement (!) that the Lord "has commanded us to go forth to preach, and to invite you to the supper of the heavenly king... and to give you your wedding garments, that is to say, the privilege of being baptized... you are to regard this as the first step of three, which step brings forth thirty commandments, as the second step does sixty, and the third one hundred"

What a ridiculous quote! But I could (having been a skilled LDSaint) make this explain the solar, lunar and stellar of 1 Corinthians 15 and my gorgeous graphic. But who cares what Nibley says.

I suspect Paul pointed out objects in the sky and animals on the earth simply to say, "See. There are differences all around you. Same thing in the resurrection". But Paul was not talking about kingdoms (do you see the word, "kingdom") or any eternal reward or placement.

SAYS YOU: "The above ignores the further light and knowledge found in D&C 76 and 88....."

ME: My point is that it is critical that those Sections should be compared to the Bible and Book of Mormon teachings and then reasonably be ignored. The Bible and Book of Mormon command me to do just that. The Ezekiel citation that you guys always quote (Ezekiel 37) talks about only two sticks that you must use to answer your kids' question. The Book of Mormon tells you to confound false doctrine with two books, the Bible and Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 3:12). and even your Prophet claims Jesus said,

Doctrine and Covenants 42:12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

I know what the typical LDSaint would say to the last citation. They would claim "on-going restoration" and declare that this verse is now obsolete. But, as you know, your living oracles claim the authority to go back and alter the words that have gone forth in order to have them conform to newly revealed precepts (Doctrine and Covenants 10:10). But they didn't do that in the case of Doctrine and Covenants 42:12.

You would say that your Living Oracles are a wonderful thing because "God is not a God of confusion". Yet if your god left this supposedly false, misleading, obsolete and confusing verse in the extremely fluid pages of the Doctrine and Covenants, which he can direct your leader to edit any how and any time, well, he is a god of confusion.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:12 may be viewed as obsolete by you. But, according to your Prophet, the Preface of the Book of Commandments (D&C 1) is clear that the contents of that book "are true and faithful" and that Jesus said "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken" and, lastly, the "record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever: Amen" (Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 1, Page 6). One would think editing that book is, with this, discouraged.

The point is, if it isn't obvious, that flying to ancient writings, writings you know contain a host of doctrines you do not believe, is willfully rebelling against the clear commandment to "teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel". You will not find a fulness of the gospel by picking and choosing through the writings of apostates to find a jot here and a tittle there, wrest those crumbs to hint at what you teach at the same time rejecting clear instructions regarding your two reference books (sticks) you supposedly believe. The Lord, if you believe he was speaking through Joseph Smith, told you where you find the fulness of the Gospel! In the two Books!

As you admit, you cannot teach your concepts being discussed using those two books.

SAYS YOU: "...a just God could not divide all mankind into two general categories, one destined for heaven and the other destined for hell. Truly, the LDS view is a more just solution befitting a loving Heavenly Father."

ME: Truly, that Just and Loving God so clearly disagrees with your LDS view.

1 Nephi 15

30. And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end.
35. ....the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

You would say that only two destinations does not reflect "many mansions". So how many do you come up with to meet the "many"? Three! That many! You guys crack me up. Besides, you never finish the quote, which I supply:

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Notice that Jesus said "a place". This is in keeping with the Book of Mormon.

Enos 1:27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal [terrestrial] shall put on immortality [celestial], and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen.

Mosiah 26:23 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand.
24 For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.

Alma 5:24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?

Alma 18:30 And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.

Ether 12:4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Ether 12:32 And I also remember that thou hast said that thou hast prepared a house for man, yea, even among the mansions of thy Father, in which man might have a more excellent hope; wherefore man must hope, or he cannot receive an inheritance in the place which thou hast prepared.
33 And again, I remember that thou hast said that thou hast loved the world, even unto the laying down of thy life for the world, that thou mightest take it again to prepare a place for the children of men.
34 And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father.
37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

The only one other "place" taught is hell.

1 Nephi 15:35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

2 Nephi 28:23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Now you may have judged the Love and Justice of God, but I think I will just go with how he describes himself and also our destinies in the New Covenant, even the Book of Mormon especially since the Bible testifies that the Book of Mormon is true.