<strong>Justin Koh</strong>

Justin Koh

For Latter-day Saints, what is the value of studying and reading the Book of Mormon on a daily basis?

Ray Farmer
Jealous of and Zealous for the Book of MormonNov 20

Unless exhausted from the day before, I generally wake between 4a and 6a to study the Book of Mormon. You may think that is a bit fanatical, but you should know the rest of the story beofre you judge how fanatical that really is.

I do not believe in the Church. I used to. However, a careful look at the doctrines of Salvation presented in the Book of Mormon will convince someone who does so with an open mind that the doctrine of the Church is not only different from the Book of Mormon but directly contradictory, as if it were written to warn LDSaints. I relate this to convince you that I don't study the Book of Mormon for the purpose to be known as some great scholar when I meet among the LDSaints. If I were to share my discoveries with LDSaints I would be considered an heretic so I, when compelled to be among them, keep my mouth shut and mourn for them.

On the other hand, I meet with some saints down the road that call themselves the Church of the Nazarene. If they were to put aside initial prejudices against the Book of Mormon, which come from mistakenly assuming that LDSaints get their odd doctrine therefrom, they would find themselves in almost total agreement with the doctrines put forth in the Book of Mormon. However, among them I share nothing directly from the Book of Mormon by chapter and verse, though I share the doctrines of the Book and the things I have come to understand. I just don't reference the Book of Mormon.

So, why am I writing this? Why do I study the Book of Mormon so intensely? It is 100% personal.

Reading the Book of Mormon is interactive. The Holy Ghost breaths into my heart as I read, ponder and pray. I am able to breath back gratitude and question. This back and forth takes place in the hours that I am engaged. Sometimes I am enlightened, sometimes rebuked, sometimes just comforted and filled again with ever increasing hope and joy.

Nobody cares about any of my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon, but that matters to me not at all.

I understand the following:

Ether 12:39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

The LDSaints can reject the doctrines and the things taught in that book and the rest of the world can scoff and trample it for all me. That Book is mine.
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Justin Koh
· Nov 21

Hey my friend, I'm a Latter-day Saint, and I hope you don't mind me leaving this genuine comment to your statement. I am really concerned as to the welfare of your soul, because judging by your statement it sounds rather heretical, even to the point of sounding delusional, with all due respect. It's not my intention to accuse you of anything but I want you to understand the severity and the seriousness of the things that you are saying.

I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the Lord's Church, teaches doctrines and teachings that are aligned with the Book of Mormon. I was genuinely shocked to hear someone say that the Church's teachings don't align with the Book of Mormon, because I don't see any misalignment or new theologies or doctrines being formed that are inconsistent to scriptures, of course, that is if you agree or accept that the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are considered scripture.

I am concerned also that, I assume, you don't have a community or people supporting you in your faith, who have the same belief as you do. Because if you lack a community to support your faith, it is easy for you to lose it, and that is the same for any religion anyone chooses to believe in.

If you think my above statements and observations are wrong, I'm more than willing to speak more about it with you, or if you think there are any inconsistencies between what is taught in the Book of Mormon and what the Church teaches, feel free to tell me what they are so we can discuss it further if you want to.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 21

SAYS YOU: "...if you agree or accept that the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are considered scripture."

ME: The Book of Moses and early, unedited, sections of the Book of Commandments seem to have been written by someone whose understanding of the principles of the Book of Mormon were fresh in the mind or written with the Book of Mormon open and before Joseph claimed to be a prophet and invented contrary doctrine. They shouldn't be relied upon as scripture, however. The Book of Mormon teaches that there are but two books that should be consulted to establish doctrine.

2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write [Book of Mormon]; and the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible] shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins [Book of Mormon], and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible], shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

That there are only two books that must be consulted when confirmed with new doctrine is a familiar concept among LDSaints. Consider the oft quoted Ezekiel 37:

16. Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19. Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

How many "sticks" do you count. As in the Book of Mormon, there are only two.

How does one use the two books? We find the method in Acts 17:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

We see that the Bereans received the word without resistance, then check out to see if the concepts conformed to the Word of God. Isaiah (also quoted in the Book of Mormon this) warns against peepers and mutterers:

Isaiah 8

19. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Even the Doctrine and Covenants promotes these two Books!

Doctrine and Covenants 42:12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

SAYS YOU: "I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the Lord's Church, teaches doctrines and teachings that are aligned with the Book of Mormon. I was genuinely shocked to hear someone say that the Church's teachings don't align with the Book of Mormon"

ME: You seem to be willing to discuss the contradictions. There are so many that it seems that the Book of Mormon was written to warn LDSaints saints against the doctrines they love most! That's why Moroni's promise says

Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them....

It is not in God's wisdom that everyone gets the Book of Mormon. Significantly, it is, for the most part, LDSaints that carry the book about and claim to believe in it. The conclusion is that it is the LDSaints that need to read and believe "these things". Strangely, they believe the book but reject the things written on the pages! The Book of Mormon distinguishes between the two because it anticipates everything.

2 Nephi 27:12 ....three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of THE BOOK and THE THINGS THEREIN.

LDSaints say the Book is true and go on to say that its truthfulness testifies that Joseph was a prophet. So they believe the book. They do not believe the things therein that confound the doctrine of Joseph and Sidney.

Some examples I will put forth. Anyone of them can be a springboard to our impending discussions.

Temple Work and the Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon is aggressive in confounding all concepts involved in the LDS Temples.

You say people can repent after death. the Book of Mormon clearly confounds this idea.

Alma 34

30. And now, my brethren, I would that, after ye have received so many witnesses, seeing that the holy scriptures testify of these things, ye come forth and bring fruit unto repentance.
31. Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the FINAL STATE of the wicked.

This seems to confound the whole idea behind temple work. The Lord tweaks temple-worshipers in the very next verse, specifically identifying the real temples!

Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell...

The Book of Mormon is amazing and complete!

1 Nephi 15

32. ...the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body IN THEIR DAYS OF PROBATION.
33. Wherefore, IF THEY SHOULD DIE IN THEIR WICKEDNESS they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34. ....FINAL STATE of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and DIETH IN HIS SINS, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

Alma 12:16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that WHOSOEVER DIETH IN HIS SINS, AS TO A TEMPORAL DEATH, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

Alma 12:24 ....this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

There are a multitude of teachings that confirm the idea that this life, this temporal moment is the day of probation. Eternal reward or punishment is determined at death. There is no moving from spirit prison (not in scriptures) to paradise in the time between death and resurrection.

Alma 40

13. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil--for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house--and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

[Not much of a spirit school. Sound awful]

14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus THEY REMAIN IN THIS STATE, AS WELL AS THE RIGHTEOUS IN PARADISE, UNTIL THE TIME OF THEIR RESURRECTION.

Alma 40:21 ....there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery UNTIL the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Moroni 10:34 [Moroni is not leaving paradise to preach repentance to the wicked] And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite...

We know that in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, Abraham states

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Even the Doctrine and Covenants 38

4. I am the same which have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom; and verily, I say, even as many as have believed in my name, for I am Christ, and in mine own name, by the virtue of the blood which I have spilt, have I pleaded before the Father for them.
5. But behold, the residue of THE WICKED HAVE I KEPT IN CHAINS OF DARKNESS UNTIL the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;
6. And even so will I cause THE WICKED TO BE KEPT, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom.

Related to the temple (and there is much) you say those who die without the law need to be baptized. Mormon hits hard against this.

Moroni 8

22. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also ALL THEY THAT ARE WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and UNTO SUCH BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING--
23. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25. And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

Obviously those who didn't have the Gospel can't repent. Repentance comes before baptism. Since those who die in ignorance are not under the curse of a broken law can't repent and, therefore, can't meet the requirements of baptism.

You call it "work for the dead". Mormon calls it "dead works"! He also calls it "mockery before God", "this gross error", "solemn mockery before God". To him who believes the ignorant "need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell".

The Lord expounds "His Gospel" three times between 3 Nephi 11:30 "...Behold, this is not my doctrine.. and 3 Nephi 11:39 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine". Clearly the LDSaint doctrines of necessary salvation requirements are not between these verses. There is no temple attendance requirement, priesthoods, oaths and covenants, eternal marriages, new names, signs and tokens to pass angels. Read it yourself and see. What you will find, though, is a warning to you about adding stuff to the simple doctrine He puts forth:

3 Nephi 11

39. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40. And whoso shall DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

You say we must "stand in Holy Places", meaning the temple. Just as the Lord tweaked you by using "dead works" and "temples" are the hearts of the righteous, He gets you again when discussing the Zoromites who required attendance at a certain place.

Alma 31:21 Now the PLACE was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the HOLY STAND.

These are just a few of the "anti-mormon" teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding temples. A book can be written about the temple and the Book of Mormon to include views of oaths and covenants, elegant sanctuaries, etc.

We can get into divine authority, the sacrament, and, most interesting, degrees of glory and multiple kingdom rewards as foreign and contradictory to the Book of Mormon.

You pick.

SAYS YOU: "I am concerned also that, I assume, you don't have a community or people supporting you in your faith"

ME: Join me! All joking aside, you will read in the scriptures a grand multitude of folks who were alone in their faith and yet maintained it.

Justin Koh
· Nov 22

My friend, I would that you refer to of the Bible and the Book of Mormon which do testify of the need for temples and baptism for the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:29,

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

John 3:5,

“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

Of this criticism, Harold B. Lee said:

Now, our scoffers say, "How can you say that the Book of Mormon has the fulness of the gospel when it doesn't speak of baptism for the dead?" Some of you may have asked that question.

What is the gospel as it is defined? Let me give you how the Lord defines the gospel, in these words: "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (DC 39:5-6

Wherever you have a restoration of the gospel, where those fundamental ordinances and the power of the Holy Ghost are among men, there you have the power by which the Lord can reveal all things that pertain to the kingdom in detail, don't you see, including baptism for the dead, which He has done in our day. That is what the Prophet Joseph Smith meant when he was questioned, "How does your church differ from all the other churches?" and his answer was simple, "We are different from all the other churches because we have the Holy Ghost." (See History of the Church 4:42.) Therein we have the teachings of the fulness of those essentials in the Book of Mormon upon the foundations of which the kingdom of God is established.[2]

BYU professor Noel Reynolds wrote:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not synonymous with the plan of salvation (or plan of redemption), but is a key part thereof. Brigham Young stated that the 'Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son.' While the plan of salvation is what God and Christ have done for mortals in the creation, the fall, the atonement, the final judgment, and the salvation of the world, the gospel contains the instructions--the laws and ordinances--that enable human beings to make the atonement effective in their lives and thereby gain salvation.[3]

In 3 Nephi 11:33–34, Jesus declares His doctrine,

“And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.”

Now what does Jesus mean by this?

When Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved, this makes baptism a crucial element in terms of salvation. However, those who aren't baptized can't be saved, so how are you going to ensure that those who had died can be saved. That is whan baptism for the dead comes in.

When Jesus say, “whoso believeth in me", I think it would be fair to say that it means that whoever has faith in Him. Now what is faith? Faith not only includes inward faith but also how our faith translates into actions, whereby faith is exemplified by works. Now what are these works? These works are what is commanded by God, be it through scriptures or through His mouthpieces, the prophets and apostles of the Church.

So, if I've heard you correctly, you believe that the prophets of the Lord of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are false and teach contrary to the Book of Mormon. If that's the case, there would therefore be no prophet on Earth.

However, if you look at Amos 3:7, it says

“Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

Are you claiming that God is doing nothing?

Teachings that are not included in the Book of Mormon should not be seen as falsehoods or untruths, as there is ongoing revelation. Not everything has been revealed to us, there are many things that are yet to be revealed and there are also many things that we can't comprehend or understand as of the moment.

Also, in the Bible, it talks about the spirit prison in 1 Peter 3:18–19, which says,

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”

I really do hope that you read what I've written, and pray about it. Because I'm truly concerned for the welfare of your soul. Take your time and digest what I've written here and we will talk more about it.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 22

SAYS YOU: "Take your time and digest what I've written here"

ME: Sadly, you have not extended to me the same consideration that you would require of me. However, I assure you that I have spent years digesting what you have written. I served a mission in Italy, taught seminary and institute for years and have considered and taught your beliefs for they were mine for decades.

By your reply I see that you have missed or ignored the plain and precious parts of my comment which are:

a. This life is our day of probation.
b. We must not die in our sins. If we do we cannot repent after death.
c. Baptism is for those under the law. If one has not the law, baptism availeth nothing.
d. All precepts are to be considered as to whether they conform to the Bible and the Book of Mormon...two books. This is especially true when men and women claim new revelation.

I have gone out of my way to demonstrate this comparison using the Book of Mormon to confound false doctrine, specifically temple work for the dead.

If you missed these points, go back and read them again before proceeding with the following. I will not make the case again and subject you to further tedium.

SAYS YOU: "the Bible and the Book of Mormon which do testify of the need for temples and baptism for the dead"

ME: I think I have demonstrated that they, in fact, teach against these concepts. Temple work assumes that the day of probation lasts until the judgement, that one may repent and accept baptism after death and that baptism and a host of other oaths, covenants and ordinances are required, which can be done vicariously. But lets consider your texts that you believe teach temples and baptism for the dead.

YOU CITED: John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

You assume being "born of water" means baptism. There is no basis for this interpretation. We have to come to the waters and be transformed, but your citation does not say baptism at all. Consider this alternate interpretation:

1 Nephi 11:25 .... the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God...

Ether 8:26 ...come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

Ether 12:28 ....faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me--the fountain of all righteousness.

YOU CITED: Harold B. Lee.

ME: That quote is a hot mess. He asks "What is the gospel as it is defined?" and goes on with a series of assertions. Yet the Lord clearly, in three places, defines His Gospel doctrine. In one instruction He warns not to add or take away from stated definition!

2 Nephi 31:2 > 21

Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ..[Gospel expounded]...behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,

3 Nephi 11:31 > 39

Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.....[Gospel expounded]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine...

3 Nephi 27:13 > 21

Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you.....[Gospel expounded]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel...

For the most part, the above can be summerized by DC 39:5-6 as Lee indicates:

And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.

Now you or Lee can go ahead and declare more or less at will, but you are warned:

3 Nephi 11:40-1 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

Professor Noel Reynolds and his B.Y. citation strikes at the heart of Christianity propounding that laws and ordinances make the atonement effective in our lives, that through laws and ordinances we gain salvation. Rather, there is something else that makes the atonement effective.

Matthew 25:34-6 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Those things are essential and cannot be done vicariously. Indeed, once we leave our bodies behind, we can’t even do them ourselves in the spirit world where none will be hungry or thirsty or naked. This is work for the Mortal Probation period

SAYS YOU: "When Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved, this makes baptism a crucial element in terms of salvation. However, those who aren't baptized can't be saved,"

ME: Jesus never taught that all must be baptized. As I wrote in a previous comment, infants need no baptism and those without the law don't need baptism. Go back and read that part. Here is a chart I made that demonstrates who needs baptism and who doesn't.

We will cover baptism for the dead later.

Works

SAYS YOU: "works are what is commanded by God, be it through scriptures or through His mouthpieces, the prophets and apostles of the Church."

ME: Nephi tells us how we are to know what "to do". Read again (and again) 2 Nephi 31-2:

Follow Jesus' Example

2 Nephi 31:17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me,

3 Nephi 27:21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

Feast On Words Of Christ

2 Nephi 32:3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

Obey the Holy Ghost

2 Nephi 32:5 ....receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

Personal Revelation

2 Nephi 32:6 ....And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Sorry. Nephi doesn't tell you to consult Living Oracles; no mouthpieces, prophets nor apostles of the Church. When those mouthpieces tell you to do something in the Church that you didn't see Jesus do, than take that as a warning. Jesus didn't do the temple nor baptisms for the dead. Do you see him doing that anywhere in the scriptures?

SAYS YOU: "you believe that the prophets of the Lord of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are false and teach contrary to the Book of Mormon. If that's the case, there would therefore be no prophet on Earth."

ME: Those guys or no guys? That is kinda narrow, don't you think? There are and always have been people prophesying. Look at King Ben's regular ol' people:

2. ...the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.3. And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

You say God does nothing expect He tells the prophets. Because I don't believe your prophets you think I believe God is doing nothing. Yet, you believe prophets are a result of a restoration after a long period of apostasy where there were no prophets. Was God doing nothing during the "dark ages"? We know he was bringing gentile saints to the new world by his spiritual influence. Or could it be that He has revealed everything expedient through the prophets in the Book of Mormon and Bible? Were there prophets with authority in the days of Columbus? Yet, through prophets the Lord told us that this would happen.

SAYS YOU: "Teachings that are not included in the Book of Mormon should not be seen as falsehoods or untruths, as there is ongoing revelation. "

ME: All teachings must be scrutinized by how they are confirmed by the Book of Mormon and Bible, the two sticks. This was covered in my initial comment (please review). People may say some wonderful things that are true. They may say wonderful things that are false or are personal, though well-considered, opinions. The Book of Mormon and the Bible will aid us in winnowing them out. If the precepts are confirmed in the two sticks, the words are true no matter who speaks them. If they are contradicted by the sticks, we must reject and decry them. If they are neither confirmed or denied by the two sticks, the precept might be true or might be false, but which ever they can be disregarded as unimportant nor essential to salvation. That is my rule. Example. If someone told me Mars was inhabited by invisible Quakers, I could neither confirm nor deny the belief and so it doesn't matter. Not everything has been revealed to us, but what has been is true.

Baptism for the Dead

SAYS YOU: "Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved"

ME: Please refer to my handy flow chart on baptism above. This statement is false.

YOU CITED: 1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

ME: If Paul wrote "why are WE then baptized for the dead", maybe one could accept the doctrine. But who are the "THEY" in the verse that Paul was pointing to? They were those among the saints who didn't believe in the resurrection and yet were baptizing for their dead folks! Apostates. They were those miserable people who believed that hope in Christ is only for this life!

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:32 ... if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

We see that "they" were apostates.

Spirits in Prison

You partially cited Peter. That was unwise because you have to read the whole concept, not just the "Come Follow Me" edited edition.

1 Peter 3

18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

First, it doesn't say anything about sending righteous dead elders to preach in the prison. It says HE went. And He didn't go to the rebellious and wicked.

Doctrine and Covenants 138

20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22. Where these were, darkness reigned...

So he didn't go to the so-called prison. He preached to a certain set of good people who died while waiting of Jesus accomplish the atonement, or as Peter put it "while the ark was a preparing". These are good people who kept the commandments and the law of Moses or at least the light of Christ. The Book of Mormon talks about these people.

Mosiah 15

21. And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN, AND WHO ARE, AND WHO SHALL BE, EVEN UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST--for so shall he be called.
22. And now, the resurrection of all THE PROPHETS, AND ALL THOSE THAT HAVE BELIEVED IN THEIR WORDS, or all those that have KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.
23. They are raised to dwell with God WHO HAS REDEEMED THEM; thus THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.
24. And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are THEY THAT HAVE DIED BEFORE CHRIST CAME, IN THEIR IGNORANCE, NOT HAVING SALVATION DECLARED UNTO THEM. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.

What can be more clear?

Who are those that He doesn't teach in spirit Prison? This is also clear:

Mosiah 15

26. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and DIE IN THEIR SINS; yea, even all those that have PERISHED IN THEIR SINS EVER SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
27. Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For SALVATION COMETH TO NONE SUCH; FOR THE LORD HATH REDEEMED NONE SUCH; YEA, NEITHER CAN THE LORD REDEEM SUCH; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.

They cannot be redeemed. They cannot repent. Baptism cannot save them. They are rebels. Yet you have righteous dead elders teaching those who cannot be redeemed!

Doctrine and Covenants 138

37. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

How fruitless. "SALVATION COMETH TO NONE SUCH; FOR THE LORD HATH REDEEMED NONE SUCH; YEA, NEITHER CAN THE LORD REDEEM SUCH". those who say they can be saved make God a liar!

Alma 5

20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
22. And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?
23. Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except YE MAKE OUR CREATOR A LIAR FROM THE BEGINNING, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

I have to go. I have a new grand daughter this morning. I was hoping to be more thorough..

Justin Koh
· Nov 22

Hey my friend, before I go on further, I would want to say that you have given convincing reasons to back up what you have said so far. However, I know that Joseph Smith has been called as a prophet of the Lord, and I believe every word that he has said, especially those which are considered scripture by the Church. Moreover, the Spirit of the Lord has testified to me and others that the Prophets and Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are true. To deny this is to deny the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

We see in John 5:31–32, which says,

“If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.”

What you are saying, although yes, is scripturally sound, but you bear witness of yourself, there is no one that testify of what you say is true. Whereas for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have millions of people bearing witness and tesify that what we believe are true, even the Holy Ghost bears witness of this fact. I've said countless times to people that oppose my faith, that spiritual evidences is more important than physical evidences, what more do I need if the Holy Ghost bears witness of what I believe is true?

Now let's talk about why Baptism of the Dead is not included in the Book of Mormon explicitly

There are several factors which should be considered. There are textual and editorial reasons to suspect that Mormon would not include vicarious ordinances: most of the history predates Christ, and little about Nephite worship after Christ is discussed.

On a more basic level, however, baptism for the dead is not discussed because it is not germane to the Book of Mormon's purpose: to teach the fulness of the gospel, which involves the basics of faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endurance to the end. The readers of the Book of Mormon are promised that they will learn more once they have passed these first steps.

There are additional factors, however, which lead us to suspect that vicarious baptism would not be included in the Nephite record.

#1: Baptism for the dead may not have been preached before Christ

This ordinance of baptism for the dead would perhaps not be practicable prior to the atonement of Christ, for Christ is the one who broke the bands of death and hell and inaugurated the preaching of the Gospel to the Spirit World (see 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:5-6, DC 138:). Since most of the Book of Mormon account precedes the resurrection of Christ, we should perhaps not expect vicarious ordinances to be mentioned prior to 3rd Nephi. Third Nephi is concerned with the teachings of Christ, and Mormon specifically tells us that only the lesser portion of Christ's teachings are recorded (see 3 Nephi 26:8-12). The Book of Ether likewise predates Jesus' resurrection, and so the performance of vicarious ordinances might be premature.

#2: Mormon's abridgement does not tell us much about Nephite worship after Jesus' departure

This leaves only the books of 4th Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni as potential sources for baptism for the dead among the Nephites. It is clear, however, that during this time that Mormon and Moroni were both heavily engaged with an apostate people. Both Mormon and Moroni were teaching repentance to their people, rather than temple ordinances.

This leaves us with only 4th Nephi, about which very little is written other than to say that the people enjoyed almost 200 years of peace. The text tells us nothing about the practices and worship of this period—partly because the record has been created retrospectively. Mormon's goal as editor in 4th Nephi is clearly to illustrate the collapse and ruin of the Nephites because of worldliness and pride. He makes it clear, however, that there were many other things revealed to the Nephites (Mormon 5:16-17).

#3: Some preparatory scripture is included

Though we have no record of Jesus teaching baptism for the dead in 3 Nephi, He did command the inclusion of material from Malachi about the coming of Elijah and hearts turning from the children to the fathers (see 3 Nephi 25:1-6

). This is a classic text for the doctrines of temple work and vicarious ordinances, so this may be a hint that further teachings were given about these matters of which we do not have record, as discussed in point #2 above.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 23

SAYS YOU: "What you are saying, although yes, is scripturally sound, but you bear witness of yourself, there is no one that testify of what you say is true."

ME: As you indicated, my points were scriptually sound. The reason is because I purposefully use the Book of Mormon and Bible. The two books testify of each other. I may not be an acceptable witness, but the two I quote extensively from witness To the Gospel of Christ found in the Book of Mormon and Bible.

Mormon 7

8. ....lay hold upon the gospel of Christ, which shall be set before you, not only in this record but also in the record which shall come unto the Gentiles from the Jews, which record shall come from the Gentiles unto you.
9. For behold, this is written for the intent that ye may believe that; and if ye believe that ye will believe this also.

I will repeat, regarding this second witness concept, 2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

1 Nephi 13 is rich with this concept of two witnesses. I edited for brevity, but you can read the whole, which I always encourage.

35. For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious;....these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
36. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.
38. And it came to pass that I beheld ...the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.
39. And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, UNTO THE CONVINCING.....THAT THE RECORDS OF THE PROPHETS AND OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB ARE TRUE. [none of this ‘as far as it is translated stuff]
40. And the angel spake unto me, saying: THESE LAST RECORDS, WHICH THOU HAST SEEN AMONG THE GENTILES, SHALL ESTABLISH THE TRUTH OF THE FIRST, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known....that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
41. And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and THE WORDS OF THE LAMB SHALL BE MADE KNOWN IN THE RECORDS OF THY SEED, AS WELL AS IN THE RECORDS OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Concluding this discussion on “witnesses”, I will point out that the above consideration is why the Doctrine and Covenants commands using the two books:

Sadly, the Doctrine and Covenants is an interesting edit of the Book of Commandments (1833) which says:

Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 44, Page 91

13 And again, the elders, priests, and teachers of this church, shall teach THE SCRIPTURES which are in the bible, and the book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel;

Question: who uses the altering of words that have been written and sent out?

Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written...

So, I am not the witness you are looking for. I just am here to show how the two witnesses testify to the same doctrine.

SAYS YOU: "There are additional factors, however, which lead us to suspect that vicarious baptism would not be included in the Nephite record."

ME: All of your factors can be used to "prove" the worship of the Madonna, the Holy Virgin Mother or the existence of invisible Quakers on Mars. If you can argue from ignorance you can prove anything. Be that as it may, most of the Book of Mormon was written after the coming of Christ by someone who saw our day.

Lets, in that light, consider Doctrine and Covenants 128:15

15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.

If Mormon believed that work for the dead was essential to our own salvation and Temple work was practiced among his people, he would have included all kinds of information related. He saw our day and the foolish doctrines those who carried his book believed and included everything needed to warn us. Those doctrines he included make up the bulk of my previous comment.

SAYS YOU: "On a more basic level, however, baptism for the dead is not discussed because it is not germane to the Book of Mormon's purpose "

ME: The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach the fulness of the Gospel or, as Mormon himself put it, "the true points of his doctrine”.

3 Nephi 21

3. Verily, verily, I say unto you, when THESE THINGS shall be made known unto them...
4. ...that THESE THINGS might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed...
6. ...THAT [here comes the purpose] THEY MAY repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of THE TRUE POINTS OF MY DOCTRINE...

"These things" are the doctrines found in the Book of Mormon. "These things" are different from the Book of Mormon itself. Most Latter-day saints believe the Book of Mormon but reject the "these things". Believing that the Book of Mormon is a product of Joseph Smith so he must be a prophet is not the same thing as reading the doctrine and praying about "these things" written therein. How many believe the Book of Mormon as a concept itself because Joseph Smith, they believe, is a prophet, but have never read it!

2 Nephi 27:12 ....the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of THE BOOK and THE THINGS THEREIN.

Moroni's promise is not about praying if the Book is true. You encourage people to pray about the Book. They should be reading, pondering and praying about the "these things" or the true points of [His} doctrine. Look at Moroni's promise in this light:

1. Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I WRITE unto my brethren...
2. And I seal up THESE RECORDS....
3. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read THESE THINGS, if it be wisdom in God that ye should READ THEM, .....ye shall receive THESE THINGS, and ponder it in your hearts.
4. And when ye shall receive THESE THINGS, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if THESE THINGS are not true;

Nephi, who also saw our day, writes :

1 Nephi 6:4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

1 Nephi 15:13-4, regarding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon,

....then shall the fulness of the gospel [Book of Mormon and Bible] of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed-- And at that day...shall THEY KNOW AND COME TO ...THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GOSPEL OF THEIR REDEEMER, WHICH WAS MINISTERED UNTO THEIR FATHERS [Nephite prophets] BY HIM; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and THE VERY POINTS OF HIS DOCTRINE, THAT THEY MAY KNOW HOW TO COME UNTO HIM AND BE SAVED.

Certainly if work for the dead was practiced as something essential to personal salvation, and we needed to know how to come unto him to be saved, there should be at least a hint. Nothing. Only warnings.

SAYS YOU: "...Malachi about the coming of Elijah and hearts turning from the children to the fathers (see 3 Nephi 25:1-60). This is a classic text for the doctrines of temple work and vicarious ordinances,"

ME: This whole way of looking at Malachi is a hot mess.

Jesus quotes Malachi thus:

3 Nephi 25:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Yet, in the D&C it is different!

Doctrine and Covenants 2:2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

Back again in Doctrine and Covenants 110:15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse--

Yet, in the 1838 version of the First Vision, Joseph Smith--History 1:39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

How someone can take this verse and run down the road called "Work for the Dead" is beyond me. It seems more in one version to be saying that the generation gap will be remedied. Another version seems to be saying the promises that God made to the Fathers will be put into the hearts of the children and the children’s hearts shall turn towards those holy men of old who were preachers and righteous.

1 Nephi 17:40 And he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Behold, he loved OUR FATHERS, and he covenanted with them, yea, EVEN ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB; and he remembered the covenants which he had made;

1 Nephi 22:6 ....these things of which are spoken are temporal; for thus are the covenants of the Lord with our fathers;

2 Nephi 3:7 ...he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.

2 Nephi 3:12 ...bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days...

2 Nephi 10:7 ...When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers...

2 Nephi 11:5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers;

2 Nephi 30:5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.

2 Nephi 33:4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers;

Enos 1:14 For at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith. And they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers.

I could go on, but if you want to pursue this "fathers" topic in the Book of Mormon farther, you can look up:

Enos 1:18, Jarom 1:2, Jarom 1:9, Jarom 1:15, Omni 1:3, Omni 1:6, Omni 1:9, Omni 1:18, Omni 1:22, Words of Mormon 1:4, Mosiah 1:2, Mosiah 1:5, Mosiah 1:6, Mosiah 1:7, Mosiah 1:13, Mosiah 1:14, Mosiah 1:16, Mosiah 2:35, Mosiah 4:14, Mosiah 7:9, Mosiah 7:20, Mosiah 7:21, Mosiah 9:1, Mosiah 9:3, Mosiah 9:4, Mosiah 9:17, Mosiah 10:3, Mosiah 10:12, Mosiah 12:20, Mosiah 13:13, Mosiah 25:12, Mosiah 26:1, Mosiah 27:16, Mosiah 27:30, Mosiah 28:2, Mosiah 29:15, Mosiah 29:25, Alma 2:25, Alma 3:6, Alma 3:11, Alma 5:6, Alma 5:13, Alma 5:21, Alma 5:44, Alma 5:47, Alma 6:8, Alma 7:10, Alma 9:8, Alma 9:10, Alma 9:16, Alma 9:17, Alma 13:26, Alma 17:9, Alma 17:15, Alma 18:4, Alma 18:37, Alma 20:13, Alma 21:1, Alma 21:8, Alma 21:17, Alma 22:9, Alma 22:28, Alma 23:3, Alma 24:7, Alma 25:6, Alma 26:24, Alma 28:5, Alma 29:11, Alma 29:12, Alma 30:14, Alma 30:16, Alma 30:23, Alma 30:27, Alma 30:31, Alma 31:16, Alma 36:2, Alma 36:28, Alma 36:29, Alma 37:3, Alma 37:4, Alma 37:9, Alma 37:17, Alma 37:38, Alma 37:39, Alma 37:43, Alma 37:44, Alma 37:45, Alma 37:46, Alma 43:46, Alma 50:38, Alma 54:17, Alma 54:23, Alma 56:6, Alma 56:27, Alma 56:47, Alma 58:31, Alma 60:20, Alma 60:32, Helaman 3:30, Helaman 5:8, Helaman 5:19, Helaman 5:51, Helaman 8:11, Helaman 8:13, Helaman 8:22, Helaman 13:25, Helaman 15:4, Helaman 15:7, Helaman 15:11, Helaman 15:15, Helaman 16:20, 3 Nephi 1:11, 3 Nephi 5:20, 3 Nephi 10:7, 3 Nephi 20:25, 3 Nephi 20:29, 3 Nephi 24:7, 3 Nephi 25:6, 3 Nephi 26:14, 4 Nephi 1:38, 4 Nephi 1:39, Mormon 5:16, Mormon 6:6, Mormon 6:19, Mormon 6:21, Mormon 7:1, Mormon 7:5, Mormon 7:9, Mormon 8:40, Ether 4:15, Ether 6:30, Ether 7:27, Ether 8:9, Ether 10:2, Ether 11:21, Ether 12:7, Ether 12:22, Moroni 7:26, Moroni 9:8, Moroni 9:25, Moroni 10:23

Fathers in the New Testament

Luke 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;)

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus,

More "Fathers" Acts 7:2, Acts 7:11, Acts 7:12, Acts 7:15, Acts 7:19, Acts 7:32, Acts 7:38, Acts 7:39, Acts 7:44, Acts 7:45, Acts 7:51, Acts 7:52, Acts 13:17, Acts 13:32, Acts 13:36, Acts 15:10, Acts 22:1, Acts 22:3, Acts 22:14, Acts 24:14, Acts 26:6, Acts 28:17, Acts 28:25, Romans 9:5, Romans 11:28, Romans 15:8, 1 Corinthians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 1:14, Ephesians 6:4, Colossians 3:21, 1 Timothy 1:9, 2 Timothy 1:3, Hebrews 1:1, Hebrews 3:9, Hebrews 8:9, Hebrews 12:9, 1 Peter 1:18, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 John 2:13, 1 John 2:14

It certainly doesn't mean a kid will look toward his dead dad and do vicarious work for him in the temple. Rather, the living generation will be turned to the God, the gospel and covenants of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As fun as this is, this has become too long. I will end with one more important point.

SAYS YOU: "He makes it clear, however, that there were many other things revealed to the Nephites (Mormon 5:16-17)."

ME: He indicated that those things are on the sealed portion and we would get those things after we demonstrate faithfulness to the words of the Book of Mormon and that we would get them through the sealed portion.

3 Nephi 26

6. And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;
7. But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.
8. And THESE THINGS have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.
9. And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10. And if it so be that they will not believe THESE THINGS, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11. Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

We know that in 1832, when section 84 was given, they were treating the Bible and Book of Mormon lightly so were cursed with darkened minds.

Doctrine and Covenants 84

54. And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--
55. Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--
58. That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father's kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

Obviously the greater things would not be revealed to them. ET Benson, in 1986, indicated that the church was still under the curse because they were still treating the Book of Mormon lightly up to that day!

Says Ezra Taft Benson "I reaffirm those words to you this day. Let us not remain under condemnation, with its scourge and judgment, by treating lightly this great and marvelous gift the Lord has given to us" (October 1986).

My point is that no greater things have been revealed beyond the Book of Mormon at least until 1986. Temples, Baptism for the Dead, Degrees of Glory, etc were promoted in the time of the curse of darkened minds. Greater things, however, will come from the sealed portion's translation once you and your fellow members stop treating the Book of Mormon so lightly. All the false doctrines created in that dark period will be exposed and confounded when the seal is broken.

Justin Koh
· Nov 23

Hey my friend, I would like to refer to 2 Nephi 29:7-9, which says,

“Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever".

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that God speaks to His children on earth wherever and whenever they will listen, that He has done so since the earth was created, and that He will continue to do so always. His work is not yet finished, therefore doctrines are continuing to be revealed to prophets and apostles of the Church, for if the Book of Mormon and the Bible contains all of His doctrine or teachings, God would not need to reveal anymore things or truths to us. Since we know of the concept of continuing and ongoing relevation, there are bound to have teachings and truths that are not taught in the scriptures, are we going to say that they are false? OF COURSE NOT! Because it is like what mainstream Christianity is saying, that why do we need the Book of Mormon when the Bible is sufficient? These continuing and ongoing relevation can be seen most tangibly in the form of Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Another scripture that backs up the concept of continuing and ongoing relevation can be found in 2 Nephi 28:30, which says,

“For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.”

Therefore, the fact that you say that we should rely only on the Book of Mormon and the Bible is false, as it has been refuted by the above verse.

The concept of Scripture Alone or Sola Scriptura, is unfortunately false. One must never only turn to scriptures for guidance or clarity, but also to seek divine relevation through prayer. One must also listen to the people with divine authority and Priesthood on this Earth as well. The Lord established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as His Church for a reason. He chose Joseph Smith as a Prophet for a reason as well. Joseph Smith even translated the Book of Mormon, and to say that he is a false prophet is just shocking.

Furthermore, with all due respect, you are just one man, God can't only save you. You think that you have got the answers and what you believe is right, but is the whole plan of salvation to save you only? Are you going to set up a Church to proselyte to others?

Although you have been really convincing and patient in this discussion we are having, but it is hard to convince me that the belief of just one person is true, unless you are a prophet of the Lord.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 23

Malachi 3

16. Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

This verse is about us! (I just teared up!)

SAYS YOU: "I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?"

ME: No matter how much His word is distributed upon the earth, it all will agree with the Bible and Book of Mormon. As illustrated above, those two books are the touchstone to use to test doctrine for the truthfulness. As you quote, "I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another". That's why "the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also".

SAYS YOU: "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?"

ME: You seem shocked by what I put forth here. I bet you never had the Book of Mormon presented to you as I have done. Don't murmur. It is all written there. Just be willing to receive line upon line and precept upon precept. Just because we learn, as individuals, line upon line, doesn't mean the lines have not already been supplied in the text. I know you have read scriptures and have learned something new every time. The precepts have always been there on the page, but you, personally, are learning line upon line and precept upon precept. This, however, does not mean that God is piling more and more precepts and lines. They have all been provided in the Book of Mormon and Bible, as illustrated above. By the guidance of the Holy Ghost, we all just discover those precepts and lines as we progress.

Alma 12

9. And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

As you can see from the above, they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word. This doesn’t not mean that ink disappears from the pages of their scriptures! It just means they don't see and understand. On the other hand, the scriptures of he who is not hardhearted to him is given the greater portion of the word. This does not mean that pages are inserted into his scriptures. It just means that he sees and understands as he receives line upon line.

My constant prayer is Psalms 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

SAYS YOU: "God speaks to His children on earth wherever and whenever they will listen, that He has done so since the earth was created, and that He will continue to do so always."

ME: Ah! I don't believe in the general, great apostasy either!

SAYS YOU: "if the Book of Mormon and the Bible contains all of His doctrine or teachings, God would not need to reveal anymore things or truths to us."

ME: Why do we need more things or truths that are not in the two Books? Regarding the Book of Mormon alone:

1 Nephi 13:36

35. ...these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
36. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

SAYS YOU: "Since we know of the concept of continuing and ongoing revelation, there are bound to have teachings and truths that are not taught in the scriptures, are we going to say that they are false? OF COURSE NOT!"

ME: Here is a parable. I have a pen-pal who lives on Mars. He wants to know about our food. I tell him about oranges. I tell him that they are of a wonder blue color. He decides he is coming for a visit. Yikes. So I tell him that they are not blue but orange and one has to peel them.

This is a concept of continuing revelation. When I tell him that you have to peel them, that is additional revelation. But to go back and change the color description, that is not continuing revelation. It indicates that the initial description was wrong.

If the Book of Mormon teaches

1 Nephi 13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; AND THAT ALL MEN MUST COME UNTO HIM, OR THEY CANNOT BE SAVED.

But the Doctrine and Covenants in 76:43 Teaches Jesus "glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands" that is, in my parable, not advancing that oranges must be peeled, but that they aren't blue after all.

consider this: 1 Nephi 14

28. And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
30. ....if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.

Break this down like a picture of a target. The outer ring represents all truth. Nephi didn't see all truth but only a portion. The next inside ring, therfore represents the truth he saw. It is contained in the "all truth" outer ring. But he didn't write all that he saw, but only a small portion of that. This written truth is contained in the truth that he saw which is contained in all truth. What he points out in the above citation that, although he didn't write all truth, what he did write is true.

So fine! Claim additional revelation. If the scriptures speak nothing about your precept, I conclude it may be right or it might be wrong. It might be a part of the "all truth" or at least a part of the truth Nephi saw but didn't write. If I find your precept in the Book of Mormon and Bible, I somewhat assume your revelation or just your teaching is truth and is in line with what Nephi wrote, which is true. However, if the two Books say one thing and your precept teaches the opposite, then I can assume it is false. However, I don't have to worry about "All Truth" and I don't have to worry about truth Nephi saw but didn't write. I do need to be concerned about the words actually written in the Book of Mormon because

2 Nephi 25:22 Wherefore, these things [there's goes the "these things" again!] shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and THE NATIONS WHO SHALL POSSESS THEM SHALL BE JUDGED OF THEM ACCORDING TO THE WORDS WHICH ARE WRITTEN.

SAYS YOU: "unto him that receiveth I will give more"

ME: Besides personal advancement in light and knowledge, we know that more will be given us in the form of the sealed portion when you and your fellow LDSaints stop treating the Book of Mormon so lightly. How can I be so bold as to judge the LDSaints? Well, ask yourself: do you have the words of the sealed portion? Why not?

SAYS YOU: "One must also listen to the people with divine authority and Priesthood on this Earth as well."

ME: Perhaps at some future time we can study the Book of Mormon to understand divine authority. However, I see not instruction in the Book of Mormon or Bible to support your comment. We went over the way we know what to do previously a) Follow Jesus' Example and do the things He did b) Listen to the Holy Ghost c) Feast upon the words of Christ d) follow personal manifestation. See above for references and exposition. There is no counsel to consult Living Oracles since what they teach might be personal, though well-considered opinions.

SAYS YOU: "Joseph Smith even translated the Book of Mormon, and to say that he is a false prophet is just shocking."

ME: Most can't understand how I can believe in the Book of Mormon but reject Joseph as prophet. Joseph was supposed to translate the Book of Mormon and claim no other gifts. He was to be a true translator and the Book of Mormon testifies that he was a true translator. You cannot extend that to mean he was a true prophet.

Invalid: If the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a prophet. If Joseph was a prophet, the Church is true. If the church is true, Nelson is the living Oracle. If Nelson is the Living Oracle, pay your tithing.

Valid: If the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a gifted translator. that’s it.

Instead, look up Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 4, Page 10

....he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.

Yikes! Well, Joseph saw what this revelation would mean....no gift of prophet, seer, revealtor, healer. What to do? Alter the words he had written! Your Doctrine and Covenants has the edited update:

Doctrine and Covenants 5:4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.

But there is a dire warning to those who alter written words that have gone forth:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.

So, don't be so shocked. I believe Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon and that was it. Eight days after the Book of Mormon hit the bookstores, Joseph claimed other gifts. He lost the gift to translate. This explains why he could translate correctly the Book of Mormon but made a mess translating Egyptian scrolls and plates found near Kinderhook! Not to mention the mess that is the JST!!

SAYS YOU: "Furthermore, with all due respect, you are just one man,"

ME: *sigh*

Mosiah 11:20 And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi;

Mosiah 17:2 But there was one among them whose name was Alma....

Alma 19:16 ....they had all fallen to the earth, save it were one of the Lamanitish women, whose name was Abish, she having been converted unto the Lord for many years, on account of a remarkable vision of her father--

Hebrews 11:38 ....they wandered in deserts, and inmountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Luke 17:17-8 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

You are not the first to verbalize this concern:

Alma 9:2 Who art thou? Suppose ye that we shall believe the testimony of one man...

But here is the thing. I am not alone. In fact millions of Christians would agree with me and the Book of Mormon.

I have created a study method that I have employed for years. I think you will agree that it has been very effective. I can share it upon request. But what it has done for me is not to reveal new things, but to weed out doctrines that don't fit the Book of Mormon and Bible. As I have discarded those extraneous doctrines, I find that I am more in accord with many Christians. Most of the doctrines that make LDSaints unique are those that have no bases or are contradicted by the Book of Mormon and Bible.

SAYS YOU: "Are you going to set up a Church to proselyte to others?"

ME: There is and has been from the beginning the Church. There really are only two churches.

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

There is "church of the Lamb of God". Members of that church are called "the saints of the church of the Lamb". Rather than priesthood authority, they have "the power of the Lamb of God".

1 Nephi 14:14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

For those who argue about the name of the church on Quora make me laugh.

You add all kinds of qualities to identify the True Church (17 point of the true church). But Membership requirements are few and you are warned not to add requirements.

Doctrine and Covenants 10

67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

This is confirmed by Jesus who, after declaring his simple doctrine,

39. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

SAYS YOU: "These continuing and ongoing revelation can be seen most tangibly in the form of Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price."

ME: I can easily teach Book of Mormon Doctrine using the Book of Moses and those early sections in the Book of Commandments. Those were all composed with the Book of Mormon open and reflect its doctrine. Once Sidney Rigdon signed up things began and continued to fly off the rails. They closed the Book of Mormon and Bible and began to stumble all over the doctrinal countryside.

LDS author Jana Reiss wrote in the SkyLight Illuminations Series, The Book of Mormon – Selections Annotated and Explained:

Early Mormons rarely quoted from the book in their speeches and writings; in one nineteenth-century LDS periodical, Elders’ Journal, the Bible was cited forty times more often than the Book of Mormon. Although early Mormons believed that the book was an authentically ancient record and that its miraculous appearance signaled that they were living in the “latter days,” they didn’t strongly emphasize its teachings. When the book was cited, it was usually to support the belief that the LDS Church was the restoration of Israel. It wasn’t until 1961 that a year-long course in the Book of Mormon became required for freshman students at Brigham Young University, and it was the 1980’s before the Book of Mormon was cited regularly in General Conference talks by church leaders. (2005, p. xiii)

LDS Professor Grant Hardy said:

Joseph Smith did not refer to passages from the book in his writings or sermons, nor was it cited very often by early church leaders. (Grant Hardy in Royal Skousen ed., The Book of Mormon, the Earliest Text, Yale University Press, 2009, p. xxii)

LDS Professor Richard L. Bushman:

Despite the effort that went into the translation, Joseph Smith did not make the book the foundation of the church. (Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, 1984, p. 142)

LDS Professor Daniel Peterson:

Studies of Latter-day Saint sermons and curriculum from the earliest period of church history well into the 20th century demonstrate surprisingly little use of the Book of Mormon to establish doctrines or as a text from which to preach. Many Saints were converted by reading it, but, thereafter, they tended to overlook its specific content. Joseph seems somewhat detached from the book after its publication.

Now, after years of treating lightly or completely ignoring the Book of Mormon and adiding under the curse of darkened minds, LDSaints are emphasizing it since Ezra Taft Benson's talk "Keystone of our religion". To everyone's dismay who reads and studies the Book, the doctrine of the Church veered away from the doctrine of the Book of Mormon to the point that the doctrines are irreconcilable. so now you read and hear "we believe the Book of Mormon as far as it is translated correctly" or there are imperfections in the Book" or "we don't understand their culture or...". You are subjected to study the “Come Follow Me” plan that carefully takes you around and over those pesky contradictions.

Finally,

Book of Mormon Scholar J.N. Washburn:

The book under consideration bears no necessary relation to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They could exist quite independently of each other. The book is not the product of the Church, for it was in existence before the Church was. (The Contents, Structure and Authorship of the Book of Mormon, 1954, p.10)

Yikes. That was too long (but exciting all the same).

Justin Koh
· Nov 23

Hey my friend, just to clarify, when we quoted Moroni 8:22, what do you think the word “law" means in the verse itself?

Also, I thought it would be much easier if you would tell me what your beliefs are as a whole, and what do you consider as scripture, and what is not scripture?

Ray Farmer
· Nov 24

SAYS YOU: "tell me what your beliefs are as a whole"

ME: Years ago, I decided to chart the plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon. My approach was to clear my head of any prior beliefs and just go with what the Book clearly teaches. After years of much study and reading and rereading the Book of Mormon and making adjustments until no more adjustment can be made, I have come up with the diagram below (pdf). Not surprisingly, as I read all the scriptures, the Bible besides the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Moses and the early sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, I find that the chart is highly accurate and any scripture can be placed somewhere on the chart.

https://mooseifer.com/quora/SalvationChart_June2022.pdf

You will notice numbers on the chart (not in order because I added and modified concepts, as I explained). My study scriptures, my own publication, has a numbering system that corresponds with the numbers on the chart so that as I study, I can place every teaching where it belongs. Cross-referencing is easy.

Here is a sample page from my edition. It contains chapters that talk about the Plan of Salvation. You can find a list of those chapters on the left side of the chart.

Anyway, my belief system is derived from the Plan of Salvation as found in the Book of Mormon.

I guess the question you ask can be understood by the chart. I can go over any point you may not understand from my diagram. Refer to a number and I will explain it. If you are interested, I could go over the chart number by number. However, if you are familiar with the Book of Mormon you will be familiar with the terms.

Coexistent

One last diagram. One may wonder how my belief system can be so different and yet I attend the Local Ward (obligation to wife) and hold callings (Bishop knows my “apostasy”). Look at this graphic.

In the top graphic, you will see there is an overlap of Bible and Book of Mormon teachings and LDSaint doctrine regarding the plan of Salvation. I stay in the overlap while at the Ward. Fortunately, there is a wider overlap when it comes to the Moral Law (the be nice doctrines) and so it is easier to stick with those topics.

The Law

The law is the “Moral Law”. I would like to go into that more, but it is a holiday and my time is limited.

Justin Koh
· Nov 25

Hey my friend, the chart you have created is quite complicated, could you kindly explain to me what it mean?

By the way, what's mooseifer? Sounds weird!

Anyways, what a unique version of the Book of Mormon you got there!

Also, I recently discussed with my LDS mentor about our discussions and he enlightened me on the fact that the Spirit world is talked about in the Book of Mormon and that baptism of the dead is needed, and I will show you why.

The verses you have previously quoted in your previous comments like Alma 34, Mosiah 2:33, Alma 12:16, and Alma 12:24, although confirms the idea that this life, this temporal moment is the day of probation, but Eternal reward or punishment is not determined at death. There is moving from spirit prison to paradise in the time between death and resurrection.

The scripture verses you have quoted, some of which I have stated above, is addressing people who have a chance to repent yet don't. It is not addressing every person who lives. In Alma 34, the final state of the wicked refers to those who "choose" not to repent. If someone was not taught the gospel they cannot "choose" to repent. In the Bible we learn that the gospel is taught to those who are dead.

For it is written in 1 Peter 4:6,

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

In D&C we learn more about what is taught in the Bible. To say since I was not taught the gospel so I don't need baptism is not accurate. Jesus who was perfect needed baptism.. not for a remission of his sins but to be obedient to the father. Baptism is extended to the dead because they are taught the gospel there. We do proxy baptisms for the dead because they do not have a body (D&C 138)

In D&C 138:32-34 we read more in depth of what the Book of Mormon meant. The people that 1 Nephi 15 addressed were the people who did have the gospel preached to them. In spirit prison, those who have not had a knowledge will now get their chance.

D&C 138:32–34:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

To conclude, those who reject the Gospel in their day of probation in this temporal world will perish and the Gospel will not be preached to them. However, those who have not heard or receive the Gospel will have a chance to repent and be baptized when the Gospel is preached to them in the Spirit world.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 26

Thank you for continuing this most interesting exchange. Usually before the point we have reached LDSaints will have called me ugly names and declared I was a spiritless apostate and broke off the conversation before it got really interesting!

The chart is actually as simple as the Gospel. It looks complicated because it is detailed. I wanted to include all the insights that the book of Mormon puts forth.

Line #3 on the chart covers the topic at hand.

After the fall and after the accountability triangle, we all move down the (#3) line. We all start out carnal, sensual and devilish.

Mosiah 16:3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.

Those who are in this state are describe as the natural man, sons of the devil, subject to the devil and part of his fold.

If we persist down line #3 and die in our sins we will be as if there were no redemption.

This is taught clearly in Mosiah 16 and other places:

1. And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.2. And then shall the wicked be cast out (#20), and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord (#6); therefore the Lord redeemeth them not (#18).3. For they are carnal and devilish (#3), and the devil has power over them (#20); yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall (#2); which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish (#3), knowing evil from good (#4), subjecting themselves to the devil.4. Thus all mankind were lost (#3); and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state (#31).5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature (#3), and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him (#20). Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made (#18b), being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.

All that seems plain and precious. What is key on line #3 is #6. Everyone persisting along #3 hears the voice of the Good Shepherd. Even all.

33. Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men (#6), for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
34. Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely [born of the water];
35. Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness (#28), and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire (#20)--
36. For behold, the time is at hand (#5) that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness (#28), the same have cause to wail and mourn (#16 and #20).
37. O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray (#3), as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you (#6) and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice (#6)!
38. Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you (#6); yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.
39. And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold (#25); and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil (#3).

Here is where one can go astray. Even though Nephi declares

2 Nephi 26:33 ...he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and HE REMEMBERETH THE HEATHEN; and all are alike unto God.

Many will believe that there are people, specially the heathen on the isles of the sea, will not be invited in life. Worse, LDSaints believe all among the Christian nations and churches are not invited! These later have to take care of business in the spirit world because they didn't get invited here. We can see how unfortunate that idea is, for it is contrary to the above citation. Worse, they have built the entire "work for the dead", which almost seems like the premiere doctrine these days, on the assumption that most people will not be invited by the Good Shepherd in the day of probation. Even worse, they believe, as you cited, that the work for the dead goes beyond just ignorance and lack of invitation, but to actual rebels and who die enemies to God!

Mosiah 2: 38. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Mosiah 16: 5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.

He Remembereth the Heathen.

One may ask how a heathen on the Isles of the Sea, in the jungles, is invited. This is critical to the understanding of the gospel to the "ignorant".

We know that everyone comes in contact with "the law".

2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So, all folks have the law to some extent. They have the light of Christ to help them choose the right. They are "enticed" to choose the right.

2 Nephi 2:16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

Alma 5:41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

This is an astonishing teaching! Lets say your womanizing, drug dealing neighbor is walking down the street and sees a lost child. Something inside tells him to help the child. That is the light of Christ. He obeys that “voice” and does the good work he was prompted to do. He feels warm inside when he sees the child happy and safely at home. This is the Voice of the Good Shepherd and it is the invitation specifically geared to your neighbor. If he continues to respond in the future, God will continue to lead him toward the truth.

Will he ever get to know all the facts and theology you think is necessary? Maybe, maybe not. But lets say from his aid to the child he discovers a happiness, small, but more than he has ever had. He sees the family joyful at the return of the child and all the love that he never had. He decides to make some improvement to his situation. He believes that there might be a God after all. He remembers the church on his corner with a cross on top. He attends and finds out about baptism and other principles of God’s expectation. He wants God with all his being and so gets baptized. He participates in the church, learns service and a lot of the basics of Christianity. He reads the four Gospels and is moved. He believes in Jesus and repents of his ways. He has come unto Christ. He belongs to the Church of Jesus.

Now, you might believe that he doesn't belong to the true church. You would be wrong. Doctrine and Covenants 10 was written by someone with the Book of Mormon open while they still believed the "these things" contained therein.

Doctrine and Covenants 10

64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely [born of the water?].
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
70. And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.

But what about false doctrine taught in the corner church he attends? Christianity, as seen above, is not a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. There will be humble followers of Jesus who will be theological messes. They are still humble followers of Christ.

2 Nephi 28:14 ....they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Helaman 6:5 Yea, and many did preach with exceedingly great power and authority, unto the bringing down many of them into the depths of humility, to be the humble followers of God and the Lamb.

One can learn charity even in churches that have horrendous doctrine. I bet you know many non-member loving people like that.

Moroni 7:47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

Remember how the Book of Mormon describes His saints.

Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God (#3), and has been from the fall of Adam (#2), and will be, forever and ever (#23), unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit (#6), and putteth off the natural man (#8) and becometh a saint (#12) through the atonement of Christ the Lord (#26), and becometh as a child (#12), submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

2 Nephi 9:18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.

It is taught that one can be a member of the "true church" while not having had the mighty change, the born again experience, and, therefore, is not a saint.

Alma 5

14. And now behold, I ask of you, MY BRETHREN OF THE CHURCH, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
49. And now I say unto you that this is the order after which I am called, yea, to preach unto my beloved brethren, yea, and every one that dwelleth in the land; yea, to preach unto all, both old and young, both bond and free; yea, I say unto you the aged, and also the middle aged, and the rising generation; yea, to cry unto them that they must repent and be born again.

Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into THE CHURCH--NOT INTO THE CHURCH OF GOD, but into the hearts of the people who PROFESSED to belong to the church of God--

Life in the Jungle among the Heathen

Lets turn our attention to those in absolute isolation in some remote steamy jungle.

We know, from the above that all have "the Law" and know right from wrong and, if they have agency, are entice for good or ill. If all have the light of Christ, these aborigines do, too.

These are the ones that Moroni 8 refers to. They don't need baptism because they are ignorant of the principle. But, where little is given (and little is given) little is required). This does not mean that they can live profligate lives. They must still hearken to the voice of the Good Shepherd. But without the complete law, they are a law unto themselves and are blessed and rebuked by the light of Christ in the form of their conscience.

Romans 2

11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

A Book of Mormon example of this is in Jacob 3. You had a bunch of ignorant Lamanites.

Nephite missionaries tried to reclaim them and restore them to the knowledge of the truth (the law). All that was vain because they were steeped in the iniquity of their fathers. But they did have an inspired aversion to polygamy and adultery which the Nephites didn't have though they had the law. Look how the Lord deals with this:

Jacob 3

5. Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father--that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
6. And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.
7. Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?
8. O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.

They were blessed because they obeyed one, "this", law. Where little is given, little is required. They were not under the condemnation of any other law and so they couldn't repent. But baptism is the first fruits of repentance. Therefore, those who are without the law need no baptism.

Alma 9

16. For there are many promises which are extended to the Lamanites; for it is because of the traditions of their fathers that caused them to remain in their state of ignorance; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them and prolong their existence in the land.
17. And at some period of time they will be brought to believe in his word, and to know of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers; and many of them will be saved, for the Lord will be merciful unto all who call on his name.

Lets take another example out of Paul's letters.

Colossians 3

22. Servants [slaves], obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23. And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24. Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Here you have instructions to slaves. Their circumstances allow them freedom to do almost nothing. But they have one command; obey their masters. Nothing else was required. They couldn't pay tithes and offerings for they owned nothing. They couldn't go on missions for they couldn't leave the estate. The master wouldn't let them get baptized because that was a token of submitting to a god, not the master. They couldn't learn to read and right. They couldn't obey the sabbath. They would not be accountable for any of those laws if they obeyed the master with singleness of heart while fearing God.

Would you require of them baptism? The Lord does not. Baptism is unto them who are capable of repenting.

Mosiah 15:24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.

SAYS YOU: "Eternal reward or punishment is not determined at death."

ME: I think the Book of Mormon is clear on this point:

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all THOSE WHO DIE IN THEIR SINS; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and REMAIN IN THEIR SINS.

If one does not deal with their sins by the time death strikes, their fate is determined.

Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

We talked about how everyone, for free agency to work, has to be enticed by God or the devil. Everyone gets the law to some extent, they all know good and evil, they are enticed, and they choose. I will repeat because there is no limitation as to who these people are.

Mosiah 3:11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

Restoration

There is a principle in the Book of Mormon called restoration. "I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration", says Alma to his son.

Alma 41

3. And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good IN THIS LIFE, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4. And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--
5. The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil ALL THE DAY LONG even so shall he have his reward of evil WHEN THE NIGHT COMETH.
6. And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7. These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGES, WHETHER TO DO GOOD OR DO EVIL.
8. Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness [the idea behind the Telestial Kingdom]. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Mormon 9:14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies AT THE TIME THAT YE GO OUT OF THIS LIFE, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

I have no idea how someone can believe that after death all of a sudden the one who was evil in this life will all of a sudden become of a different spirit and ready humbly to be informed. I also fail to see if wickedness never is happiness "shall be restored from sin to happiness" in some kind of Telestial Kingdom where they will be happy beyond all imagination.

1 Corinthians 6

9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

SAYS YOU: "1 Peter 4:6: ‘For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.’"

ME: This never says the Gospel will be preached to the wicked dead. It could very well mean that those who lived righteous lives in ignorance will have the details of the plan of salvation explained in an instant. Time is only measured unto man.

SAYS YOU: "There is moving from spirit prison to paradise in the time between death and resurrection."

ME: Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus THEY REMAIN IN THIS STATE, as well as the righteous in paradise, UNTIL THE TIME OF THEIR RESURRECTION.

Alma 40:21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and A STATE OF THE SOUL IN HAPPINESS OR IN MISERY UNTIL THE TIME WHICH IS APPOINTED OF GOD THAT THE DEAD SHALL COME FORTH, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

Moroni 10:34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite...

Doctrine and Covenants 38

5. But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;
6. And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom.

Luke 16

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. AND BESIDE ALL THIS, BETWEEN US AND YOU THERE IS A GREAT GULF FIXED: SO THAT THEY WHICH WOULD PASS FROM HENCE TO YOU CANNOT; NEITHER CAN THEY PASS TO US, THAT WOULD COME FROM THENCE.

1 Nephi 15

26. And they said unto me: What meaneth the river of water which our father saw?
28. And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf, which separated (#25) the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God.
29. And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.
30. And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide (#25) the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end (#23).
31. And they said unto me: Doth this thing mean the torment of the body in the days of probation (#5), or doth it mean the final state of the soul after the death of the temporal body, or doth it speak of the things which are temporal?
32. And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation (#5).
33. Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.

SAYS YOU: "...those who reject the Gospel in their day of probation in this temporal world will perish and the Gospel will not be preached to them."

ME: Sorry. This is not what the LDSaints teach.

For one thing, the LDSaints teach all will be saved accept so few not worth considering here. So none will perish, even members who eventually reject the Church.

"Hell...it is another name for spirit prison, a place in the postmortal spirit world for those who have “died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (True to the Faith)

"died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth". How can they sin if they didn't have knowledge of the law? 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. If they didn't know the law, they could not transgress it. If they sinned in ignorance, they are covered by the atonement.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

"or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" so they were told the truth by prophets, but rejected the truth. The Church teaches that these "will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent" contrary to your assertion. You should brush up on Church teachings.

Oddly, the Church teaches that dead folks in prison who reject the gospel preaching and the offer of vicarious baptism will be glorified in the Kingdom of God!!!

"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory" (True to the Faith)

What a mess!

SAYS YOU: "those who have not heard or receive the Gospel will have a chance to repent and be baptized"

ME: Repent for what? They can't sin in ignorance. Baptism is the first fruits of Repentance. If you can't get past the repent part, yuo can't advance to the baptism part! (Review Moroni 8)

SAYS YOU: "D&C 138"

ME: If D&C 138 is true, then the Bible and Book of Mormon are false. The D&C cannot be among the "other books" as is commonly thought.

1 Nephi 13:39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

D&C does not try to convince me that "the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true" for it teaches doctrine contrary to those Books. It cannot be one of the “other books”

I reject the Doctrines and Covenants for that and other reasons. Massive "altering of the words written and gone forth is another good reason to suspect that book.

SAYS YOU: "By the way, what's mooseifer? Sounds weird!"

ME: I had a design business called Moose Loose Design. I also taught in a graphic art school. I wanted to put stuff online, but I didn't want to get the teaching materials mixed up with business stuff. I created a site called Mooseifer for the materials. Being retired, I just deleted the materials and put my personal study tools there instead. Gospel Study

, it turns out, is easy for millennials to remember.

SAYS YOU: "sounds rather heretical, even to the point of sounding delusional, with all due respect"

ME: That is how we started out, you and I. You may have seen that I am not as delusional as you thought at first. I probably can accurately be labeled heretical by LDSaint standards. But I hope you see that there is a solid Book of Mormon basis for my views.

I don't know how much further you wish to go with this, but my hope is that if you move on from our discussion, you will read the Book of Mormon in a whole new light. If nothing else, I hope you come across verses you never noticed before only with the thought of "Hey! I should have told Ray this"!

Justin Koh
· Nov 26

Hey my friend, I always appreciate spending time and having this discussion with you. And I am sorry that other Latter-day Saints you have met called you such horrid names, I don't think that's polite or kind. I always believe that if I want others to respect me and my beliefs, I must respect them and their beliefs.

Anyways, YOU SAID: “Many will believe that there are people, specially the heathen on the isles of the sea, will not be invited in life. Worse, LDSaints believe all among the Christian nations and churches are not invited! These later have to take care of business in the spirit world because they didn't get invited here. We can see how unfortunate that idea is, for it is contrary to the above citation. Worse, they have built the entire "work for the dead", which almost seems like the premiere doctrine these days, on the assumption that most people will not be invited by the Good Shepherd in the day of probation. Even worse, they believe, as you cited, that the work for the dead goes beyond just ignorance and lack of invitation, but to actual rebels and who die enemies to God!”

MY RESPONSE: I believe the Church believe that all are invited to come unto Christ, EVERYONE! If mainstream Christianity reject the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ taught my His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in this day of probation, they will perish and I doubt they will be given a second chance when they are in the spirit prison. I would like to reiterate that the Latter-day Saints who had passed away, who enter into spirit paradise, will preach the Gospel only to those who have not heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their day of probation. Those who wilfully reject His Gospel in their day of probation, receive not such a privilege.

YOU SAID: Now, you might believe that he doesn't belong to the true church. You would be wrong. Doctrine and Covenants 10 was written by someone with the Book of Mormon open while they still believed the "these things" contained therein.

Then you quoted D&C 10:64–70

MY RESPONSE: Let's focus on verses 67, shall we?

It says, “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.”

I would like you to focus on the words that Jesus said, “cometh unto me", if someone truly come unto Christ, he will be part of His Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If someone were to come unto Christ wholeheartedly, he will be led to His Church, and become part of His Church. This Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Why? Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are filled with people who truly come unto Christ, or rather, those who remain in the Church truly did come unto Christ.

YOU SAID: “But what about false doctrine taught in the corner church he attends? Christianity, as seen above, is not a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. There will be humble followers of Jesus who will be theological messes. They are still humble followers of Christ"

MY RESPONSE: Yes, Christianity isn't a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. However, Christ has shown us THE WAY, for He is THE WAY. He has established His Church, His doctrine, and His Gospel, and has appointed His Prophets and Apostles to lead and guide His Church. If people from mainstream Christianity truly are indeed followers of Christ, when Christ led them to His Church, did they become part of it eagerly and joyfully, NO THEY DID NO SUCH THING! They oppose the Church and try to the best of their ability to lead astray countless faithful disciples of Christ. Therefore, I don't see them as true followers of Christ, unless they are teachable and willing to allow Christ to lead and guide them in their faith journey.

YOU SAID: “One can learn charity even in churches that have horrendous doctrine. I bet you know many non-member loving people like that"

MY RESPONSE: Definitely, I believe that many good values are taught in churches in mainstream Christianity, not just charity. And I do know of non-member loving people like that, you are right! I believe that every religion teaches man how to be good, not just within Christianity itself.

YOU SAID: “These are the ones that Moroni 8 refers to. They don't need baptism because they are ignorant of the principle. But, where little is given (and little is given) little is required). This does not mean that they can live profligate lives. They must still hearken to the voice of the Good Shepherd. But without the complete law, they are a law unto themselves and are blessed and rebuked by the light of Christ in the form of their conscience.”

MY RESPONSE: Moroni 8 teaches that little children need no baptism, for they do not know good from evil like we do. It is not referring to people that knew not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible and the Book of Mormon has repeated time and time again that baptism is required, Jesus even declared the need for baptism in order to be saved in His doctrine.

Also, I did not say that those who knew not the commandments of the Lord or the Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot receive blessings from God. They can if they continue to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd and let the light of Christ lead them to do good continually. In fact, if they can maintain doing good continually for the rest of their lives, it would actually prepare them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ when it is preached to them in the spirit world. And they would be more than willing to accept.

YOU SAID: “Here you have instructions to slaves. Their circumstances allow them freedom to do almost nothing. But they have one command; obey their masters. Nothing else was required. They couldn't pay tithes and offerings for they owned nothing. They couldn't go on missions for they couldn't leave the estate. The master wouldn't let them get baptized because that was a token of submitting to a god, not the master. They couldn't learn to read and right. They couldn't obey the sabbath. They would not be accountable for any of those laws if they obeyed the master with singleness of heart while fearing God.

Would you require of them baptism? The Lord does not. Baptism is unto them who are capable of repenting.”

MY RESPONSE: Baptism is still required in this case. Baptism is not just for a remission of sins, it also signifies that, in this case, the slaves belong to Christ and is part of His Church. Remission of sins is also necessary, because man do make mistakes and sin, even if they were under no law, they can still commit sin by doing or saying things that goes against their conscience. Thus, they will have the opportunity to receive the ordinance of baptism once they accept the Gospel in the spirit world. They don't have to worry.

I really like how President Joseph Fielding Smith puts it, he says,

"We are taught that we will be punished for our own sins, but what of these millions who sinned ignorantly, not having any knowledge of the mission of the Son of God? According to the divine plan the truth of the gospel must eventually be declared to them, for it is written that '... the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.' (DC 1:2)

"...We are taught that mankind through the ages will be judged by the privileges and opportunities to know the truth. If a person never had the opportunity to know anything about the plan of salvation, then surely he should not be held accountable for his deeds in the flesh on an equality with the man who knew the truth and then refused to obey it. Thousands of these people who lived in this ignorance were devout and faithful to the doctrines which they had been taught. They cannot be held accountable for their actions which were done in faith and obedience to that which they devoutly believed and had been taught.

"Fortunately the Lord will judge us all by the intent of the heart as well as by our understanding. Therefore it seems that it was only a matter of justice for the Lord to do what Abinadi said he would do and permit these who innocently died in 'their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them' to have part in this great resurrection.”

YOU SAID: “I have no idea how someone can believe that after death all of a sudden the one who was evil in this life will all of a sudden become of a different spirit and ready humbly to be informed. I also fail to see if wickedness never is happiness "shall be restored from sin to happiness" in some kind of Telestial Kingdom where they will be happy beyond all imagination.”

MY RESPONSE: I do agree with you that someone who is wicked in the day of probation cannot all of a sudden become humbly to be informed after death. That's not possible. For example, a man would lives his life in a wicked and vile manner, after death, will continue with his wicked ways in the spirit prison.

Also, as for telestial kingdom, The Lord has described those who will inherit the telestial kingdom.

Those who profess to follow Christ or the prophets but willfully reject the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant will inherit the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:99–101).
The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers?—in general, the wicked people of the earth (see D&C 76:103; Revelation 22:15). These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory.

YOU SAID: “This never says the Gospel will be preached to the wicked dead. It could very well mean that those who lived righteous lives in ignorance will have the details of the plan of salvation explained in an instant. Time is only measured unto man.”

MY RESPONSE: That's what I've been trying to explain, the Gospel never will be preached to the wicked dead, only those who have not receive or heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the day of probation can receive such preaching of the Gospel unto them.

YOU SAID: “"or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" so they were told the truth by prophets, but rejected the truth. The Church teaches that these "will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent" contrary to your assertion. You should brush up on Church teachings"

MY RESPONSE: My assertion is in line with what the Church teaches. Please read the following excerpt from Topical Guide on the Spirit World:

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them EITHER ON EARTH OR IN THE SPIRIT PRISON. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.”

I will stop writing for now due to the lack of time. I will continue on tomorrow. Feel free to comment, we can always discuss further.

Ray Farmer
· Nov 26

Yikes! I was still poking out a response before your next comment came in. Though incomplete, I think it is adequate in explaining what I think is our main difference. I will combine your comments as I study them out in my heart and mind and get back.

Here is what I was writing!

******

Least you think I don't value your thoughts, I will tell you that long, interesting and scholarly Quora discussions I put in my test to speech app on my phone and listen while I do my mountain man tasks like when I am chopping wood. I have listened to your last comment today as I ran my dog threw the pine woods. This is done with considerable risk, because the land is prowled by bears, moose and mountain lions and it is wise to pay attention to sounds one hears while abroad. I couldn't help it, though, and listened to you several times. Incidentally, on my app your sound like Sean Connery.

I think our main difference so far discovered is our ideas about the True Church. You believe that the LDSaints are it and God will lead all truth seekers there. I think the Book of Mormon is not so narrow.

1 Nephi 14:12 And it came to pass that I beheld THE CHURCH OF THE LAMB OF GOD, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that THE CHURCH OF THE LAMB, WHO WERE THE SAINTS OF GOD, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

1 Nephi 14:14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon THE SAINTS OF THE CHURCH OF THE LAMB, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

This Church of the Lamb is one of the only two churches that there are.

1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is THE CHURCH OF THE LAMB OF GOD, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to THE CHURCH OF THE LAMB OF GOD belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

There are members of this Church of the Lamb in all denominations. Through diligence and guidance by the Voice of the Lamb, they rise above precepts of men and devils and reach the full stature of Christ.

Now the next section will stun you as to my interpretation. I know how strongly the LDSaints are invested in their interpretation. But this clutching of their minds to their precept blinds them to the correct interpretation....mine (kidding). But consider that I might be right. Step out of your conclusion and just consider as a possible explanation. Here goes!

Ephesians 4

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Verse 11 does not say He gave some Apostles and some Prophets...It says he gave some, Apostles and some, prophets as if to say, he gave some people apostles and he gave some people prophets and some other people evangelists and some pastors and teachers. In other words, God wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. Therefore, he gave to all the type of leadership they would respond to. Some folks need authoritative leaders (apostles). Some respond to mysterious future predictions or bold expositions (prophets). Some respond to a missionary body (evangelists), and some need emotional help and counseling using scriptures (pastors and teachers). He not only throws the net wide, but he uses various "Lures" to catch as many fish as possible.

He knows that this will cause that we be tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, but as individuals work there way through the mist, putting pieces together as best as they can by listening to the voice of the Good shepherd "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". They become the Saints of the Church of the Lamb, even while being members of their church. Sometimes, as they grow toward the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, they may conclude that their congregation is so off that they search for somewhere else to attend. But in the end, there is unity with all other Saints of the Church of the Lamb. They will have gotten beyond "precepts" and have reached the point where they have the pure love of Christ in their hearts, which "maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love".

When I was elders Quorum President, I would go each Wednesday to a different Bible Study at various churches in the neighborhood. In the factory, I had a good friend who was an Apostolic Minister. I studied the Book of Mormon with the members and apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ. I would go down in "the hood" among the Baptists and the Church of God In Christ; and the African Methodists. You know who I found? Saints of the Church of the Lamb of God in each spot. Here, in the panhandle of Idaho, I meet with crusty loggers, sunburned farmers, school teachers and doctors to study the Bible on Thursdays. Same thing. Saints of the Church of the Lamb. They love and preach the principles of the Book of Mormon even though they don't know it.

This is the Church that the Voice of the Good Shepherd calls to. He calls them through churches that will serve as incubators for his babes in Christ. The saints will rise above doctrinal precepts and thereby they "may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ". That's why D&C 10 can say:

Doctrine and Covenants 10

64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

You seem to be one who "declareth more or less than this". "[t]herefore he is not of my church".

The whole Section breathes this truth (after the warnings to Joseph Smith about altering the words he wrote down, which he ignored). The Book of Mormon is to come forth (hasn't happened yet) to the Christians on this land according to the promises made to the Nephite Prophets. They will get and receive the gospel whose plain and precious parts are restored by the Book of Mormon to their Bible knowledge (45-52). The Book of Mormon won't destroy what they have received, but the "these things" will build up the Church of the Lamb.

52. And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.
53. And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
54. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;
55. Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Thus we see that the Church of the Lamb was here before 1830 and that the Book of Mormon is to come forth at some future time to build it up and strengthen (establish) it.

65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;

The great mystery is revealed. The Chickens are the Saints of the Lamb of God among the churches of men.

It is all explained in 1 Nephi 8, 11-5, and 2 Nephi 25-32. Reading those chapters in conjunction with Section 10 is eye opening, for sure!

There are some warnings in the Book of Mormon about churches to avoid. Let's see what it says about the LDSaints.

We are the true Church of the Lord

2 Nephi 28

For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--

Observation: Those who don't understand the existence of the Church of the Lamb of God will claim that their little congregation is the Lord's. we should not trust any Church that is so emphatic with "I, I am the Lord's"

And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance....they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept....

Observation: They are so hung up on their own little precepts that they miss the entire picture and purposes of God. Whoever disagrees with their precept does not, in thier opinion, belong to the Church of the Lamb so they contend with each other over things that matter little. You may claim not to be contentious. That is what all who say "I, I am the Lord's" say. But you throw down the gantlet on a missionaries first visit by telling the investigator that God said you are corrupt and the church you belong to worships with their lips though their heart is far from Him! Oh, great.

Knuckle heads participate in this contention crying "we're right and you are wrong". The wise listen to the points being contended and ponder them and adjust their beliefs as necessary. Nonetheless, this is where we are "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" until "we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". Here is we must be careful not to "deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance".

....the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

Observation: These folks think the Redeemer did his part and now we have to become "saviors on Mount Zion" to finish up the work of the atonement Jesus left unfinished. We will leave it there before I become needlessly offensive.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

Observation: This is a doctrine being emphasized a lot in Conference. You see it anytime you hear "God saves all the works of His hands" which would include those who Eat, drink, and are merry. Party up! For when you die you will nonetheless receive glory in the Kingdom of Heaven and you will have joy beyond comprehension in the "mansions" of the Father. When you die all will be well with you!

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Observation: You get this taught to you when anyone tells you that in the spirit world you will be punished for unrepentant sins before you are ushered into a mansion! I hate that doctrine. If we suffer for our unrepented of sins, why don't we go right to the Celestial Kingdom, since the price has been paid. No wonder the Book of Mormon calls these "false and vain and foolish doctrines". The trutth is we cannot be punished enough to pay for our sins. That is why Jesus died. Basic Christian doctrine.

I could go on to robbing "the poor because of their fine sanctuaries", supporting legalized whoredoms and singing "All is Well". It is all there in 2 Nephi 28, etc.

Our fundamental disagreement is our different views of what is "the Church".

SAYS YOU: "Those who wilfully reject His Gospel in their day of probation, receive not such a privilege."

ME: Jut talked to my faithful LDS wife who had no idea if this is true. When I was a faithful LDSaint, I would not believe that. Those who reject it probably didn't get enough of it to reject or they had personal and emotional issues. Someone, for not such a wild example, may have rejected the gospel because we call God Heavenly Father. Their father may have been the scum of the earth who beat them and their mother and so was repulsed to think that God is a father. They may have been inn crisis mode or under depression at the time they heard the Gospel. So just because one boots the missionaries doesn't mean they rejected the Gospel and would be given a chance under better circumstances in the spirit school (I don't like "spirit prison"). That would be my approach when I taught Seminary and Institute.

You may be 100% correct.

***** incomplete comment, ending before my brilliant and insightful conclusion summery*****

Justin Koh
· Nov 27

Hey, my friend. This is definitely a possible way of explaining it, I would agree. But I will put in my take hereafter:

YOU SAID: “He knows that this will cause that we be tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, but as individuals work there way through the mist, putting pieces together as best as they can by listening to the voice of the Good shepherd "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". They become the Saints of the Church of the Lamb, even while being members of their church. Sometimes, as they grow toward the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, they may conclude that their congregation is so off that they search for somewhere else to attend. But in the end, there is unity with all other Saints of the Church of the Lamb. They will have gotten beyond "precepts" and have reached the point where they have the pure love of Christ in their hearts, which "maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love".”

MY RESPONSE: The Church of the Lamb is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. People outside of the Church will never be able to receive the fulness of the Gospel, unless they choose to let God lead and guide them wholeheartedly, by which I know for sure God will lead them to His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They can't just pick and choose, to let God guide and lead them in some areas, and not let God lead them in other areas, that is not true consecration of their lives to God.

Yes, they may love Christ, but if they truly love Him, why not follow Him? Christ has already established His Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, here on this Earth, and He is beckoning His children who are caught up believing in false or semi-true doctrines to Come and See, some who are faithful choose to become part of His Church and be baptized, but most of them refused His invitation and even choose to oppose His Church.

In the case that they knew not the true and everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ but have faith in Christ and lead honorable lives, and do good, these are the people who will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, enjoying the presence of Christ. However, as for they that knew the Gospel but reject it and oppose His Church even till their death, they will be punished and will end up in the Telestial Kingdom.

YOU SAID: “This is the Church that the Voice of the Good Shepherd calls to. He calls them through churches that will serve as incubators for his babes in Christ. The saints will rise above doctrinal precepts and thereby they "may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ". That's why D&C 10 can say:

Doctrine and Covenants 10

64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

You seem to be one who "declareth more or less than this". "[t]herefore he is not of my church".”

MY RESPONSE: I think I've made myself pretty clear in my previous comment about D&C 10. I don't know whether you have read it or you might have skipped it. So, I will repeat and add additional explanations as well:

Let's focus on verses 67, shall we?

It says, “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.”

I would like you to focus on the words that Jesus said, “cometh unto me", if someone truly come unto Christ, he will be part of His Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Furthermore, President Boyd K. Packer summarized the importance of this doctrine (that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Church of the Lamb of God) when he taught, “Good conduct without the ordinances of the gospel will neither redeem nor exalt mankind; covenants and the ordinances are essential. We are required to teach the doctrines, even the unpopular ones. Yield on this doctrine, and you cannot justify the Restoration. The doctrine is true; it is logical. The opposite is not. . . . We did not invent the doctrine of the only true church. It came from the Lord. Whatever perception others have of us, however presumptuous we appear to be, whatever criticism is directed to us, we must teach it to all who will listen.” [5]

Similarly, Nephi’s declaration that “there are save two churches only” (1 Nephi 14:10), the church of the Lamb and the church of the devil, may not be too popular with other faiths (Christian denominations), but it is, as President Packer stated, both logical and true.

YOU SAID: “52. And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up.
53. And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
54. Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;
55. Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Thus we see that the Church of the Lamb was here before 1830 and that the Book of Mormon is to come forth at some future time to build it up and strengthen (establish) it.”

MY RESPONSE: The verses you have quoted does not say that the Church of the Lamb of God was here before 1830. Instead, it says that that after the people received “this part of my gospel" and if they “harden not their hearts", the Lord will build up His Church.

YOU SAID: “They are so hung up on their own little precepts that they miss the entire picture and purposes of God. Whoever disagrees with their precept does not, in thier opinion, belong to the Church of the Lamb so they contend with each other over things that matter little. You may claim not to be contentious. That is what all who say "I, I am the Lord's" say. But you throw down the gantlet on a missionaries first visit by telling the investigator that God said you are corrupt and the church you belong to worships with their lips though their heart is far from Him! Oh, great.

MY RESPONSE: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not teach the precepts of man. You of all people should know that the Church emphasizes heavily on the reliance of the Holy Ghost.

Also, I don't think missionaries would go about telling people at the beginning of their conversation that their churches preach false doctrines and things like that. And funny enough, it is the ENTIRE OPPOSITE. Instead, people would come up to missionaries and tell them that the Church is false and that we are serving a false God and a false Christ.

So, although we are the members of the Lord's Church, we don't create contentions and most missionaries I've talked to would agree that they were taught to avoid the spirit of contention. That's why you have missionaries walking out of conversations with those who oppose the Church. Not because they can't answer their questions, but because they do not want the spirit of contention to be present.

YOU SAID: “These folks think the Redeemer did his part and now we have to become "saviors on Mount Zion" to finish up the work of the atonement Jesus left unfinished. We will leave it there before I become needlessly offensive.

MY RESPONSE: The Church does not teach that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was not sufficient for atoning the sins of the world.

Under Gospel Topics on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it reads,

“Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). Through the Savior’s gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.”

The work was finished! There is no need for another Atonement to be made. I don't know who gave you the idea that the work wasn't finished.

YOU SAID: “This is a doctrine being emphasized a lot in Conference. You see it anytime you hear "God saves all the works of His hands" which would include those who Eat, drink, and are merry. Party up! For when you die you will nonetheless receive glory in the Kingdom of Heaven and you will have joy beyond comprehension in the "mansions" of the Father. When you die all will be well with you!”

MY RESPONSE: That is just not true at all, my friend. Those who end up partying and pursue after the ways of the world, neglecting their covenants with God and keeping the commandments, will ultimately lead to their own misery and downfall. They will definitely not be able to be with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ is His eternal kingdom, and they will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:79).

YOU SAID: “You get this taught to you when anyone tells you that in the spirit world you will be punished for unrepentant sins before you are ushered into a mansion! I hate that doctrine. If we suffer for our unrepented of sins, why don't we go right to the Celestial Kingdom, since the price has been paid. No wonder the Book of Mormon calls these "false and vain and foolish doctrines". The trutth is we cannot be punished enough to pay for our sins. That is why Jesus died. Basic Christian doctrine.”

MY RESPONSE: I've never heard of this doctrine of punishing people for unrepentant sins and then we can go to the Celestial Kingdom. I've never heard of this teaching ever. The only kingdom where this teaching is applicable is only to those who are going to the Telestial Kingdom. It is written in the Gospel Topics on the Spirit World that,

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.”

YOU SAID: “Just talked to my faithful LDS wife who had no idea if this is true. When I was a faithful LDSaint, I would not believe that. Those who reject it probably didn't get enough of it to reject or they had personal and emotional issues. Someone, for not such a wild example, may have rejected the gospel because we call God Heavenly Father. Their father may have been the scum of the earth who beat them and their mother and so was repulsed to think that God is a father. They may have been inn crisis mode or under depression at the time they heard the Gospel. So just because one boots the missionaries doesn't mean they rejected the Gospel and would be given a chance under better circumstances in the spirit school (I don't like "spirit prison"). That would be my approach when I taught Seminary and Institute.

MY RESPONSE: Let me perhaps clarify further what I mean. Those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ on their day of probation, will receive not the privilege of having the Gospel of Jesus Christ being preached to them, unless under special circumstances. Special circumstances refers to cases like you have mentioned above that I have quoted. This is just my understanding of this teaching.

TO CONCLUDE

Sorry for my previous incomplete comments. But please read the second half of my previous comment and this comment as well. I love to discuss doctrines and teachings of God with you. I really hope we can continue discussing. I don't care about our differences. I am here to learn and I believe I have a lot more to learn. I am neither a scripture master nor a theologian, but I have mind that is curious and willing to learn, and a heart that is teachable. And please stay safe, my friend. I do not want to you be eaten by a bear or a lion! Looking forward to your reply, Ray!

Ray Farmer
· Nov 27

Ah! There is so much we agee on. Mechanics seems to be where we part. We won't agree that the wicked will wind up happy, that they can pay for their own sins and that there are degrees of glory. And some more tidbits.

I wanna discuss some of your latest points. I think we can cut to the chase by addressing the “degrees of Glory”. We can do that before we get to the sorting out of saints and sinners into those various Kingdoms. I don’t believe in degrees and the Book of Mormon and Bible definitely contradicts that whole structure. But for now (but get ready!)

SAYS YOU: BH Roberts must have known that this is absolutely not true. "Some of the early revelations first published in the Book of Commandments in 1833 were revised by the Prophet himself in the way of correcting errors made by the scribes and publishers."

ME: I hate going down into the Church History rabbit hole, but here we go! In the "AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST", one of the three witnesses, David Whitmer, covered the stress caused by the changes to the revelations. Basically, David was in the room when Joesph and others were compiling the Revelations for the Book of Commandments. The preface to the Book of Commandments, given by revelation, David points out that it said "Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the Book of my Commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, oh inhabitants of the earth." Also in this preface, "Behold, I am God, and have spoken it; these commandments are of me." "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful." The revelations were printed in the Book of Commandments correctly. David was verbose.

THE CHANGES AND ADDITIONS TO SOME OF THE REVELATIONS.

Some of the revelations as they are now in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants have been changed and added to. Some of the changes being of the greatest importance as the meaning is entirely changed on some very important matters; as if the Lord had changed his mind a few years after he gave the revelations, and after having commanded his servants (as they claim) to print them in the "Book of Commandments;" and after giving his servants a revelation, being a preface until His Book of Commandments, which says: "Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the Book of my Commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, oh inhabitants of the earth." Also in this preface, "Behold, I am God, and have spoken it; these commandments are of me." "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful." The revelations were printed in the Book of Commandments correctly. This I know, and will prove it to you.

These revelations were arranged for publication by Brothers Joseph Smith, Sydney Rigdon, Orson Hyde and others, in Hiram, Ohio, while I was there, were sent to Independence to be published, and were printed just exactly as they were arranged by Brother Joseph and the others. And when the Book of Commandments was printed, Joseph and the church received it as being printed correctly. This I know. In the winter of 1834 they saw that some of the revelations in the Book of Commandments had to be changed, because the heads of the church had gone too far, and had done things in which they had already gone ahead of some of the former revelations. So the book of "Doctrine and Covenants" was printed in 1835, and some of the revelations changed and added to.

[Here David points out many of the edits. An intersting read but outside our topic. You can read the whole book here: An Address to All Believers in Christ Part One

]

I want to tell the brethren, that when the Book of Doctrine and Covenants was published, and presented to the church assembly in Kirtland, Ohio, in August, 1835, as recorded in the old church papers, a very few of the brethren then knew about most of the important changes that had been put in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. In time it was generally found out, and the result was that some of the members left the church on account of it. A few members dissented from the church as early as 1832, on account of the spiritual blindness of some of the leaders. When it became generally known that these important changes had been made in the Doctrine and Covenants, many of the brethren objected seriously to it, but they did not want to say much for the sake of peace, as it was Brother Joseph and the leaders who did it. The majority of the members — poor weak souls — thought that anything Brother Joseph would do, must be all right; so in their blindness of heart, trusting in an arm of flesh, they looked over it and were led into error, and finally all talk about it ceased. I was told that Sidney Rigdon was the cause of those changes being made: by smooth talk he convinced Brother Joseph and that committee that it was all right.

The editors of the old church papers, Evening and Morning Star and Messenger and Advocate, admit that some changes were made in some of the revelations; that they added some items to some revelations, from other revelations. I will not accuse those who did it of being fully aware of the grievous error they were making when they added those items — that is, made those changes; I would rather believe that they were spiritually blinded when they did it: and that Satan deceived them, whispering to them that it was all right and acceptable unto God.

Some of the Latter Day Saints have claimed that God had the same right to authorize Brother Joseph to add to any revelations certain words and facts, that He had to give him any revelations at all: but only those who are trusting in an arm of flesh and are in spiritual blindness, would pretend to make this claim; that God would give his servants some revelations, command them to publish them in His Book of Commandments, and then authorize them to change and add to them some words which change and reverse the original meaning: as if God had changed his mind after giving his word. No brethren! God does not change and work in any such manner as this; all those who believe that God does work this way, my prayer for them is that they may repent, for they are in utter spiritual blindness.

What BH Roberts put forth just wasn’t true. Blaming scribes whether here or regarding the Journal of Discourses (I am a fan) is just a cop out.

If you lived in Idaho we could really have a great tie around the campfire (in the spring!)

Justin Koh
· Nov 27

In an article written by Robert J. Woodford, called “The Story of the Doctrine and Covenants”, tells of a vastly different story as to the one you have shared. I will leave this short except below for you to read:

“Many other people made copies of the revelations; but because care was not always taken in copying, many errors were made, repeated, and multiplied as the copies were copied. Realizing the importance of having correct copies, the leaders of the Church determined to publish them. Because the originals contained spelling and grammar errors, a Church conference moved that Joseph Smith should make the necessary corrections. (Far West Record, p. 16.) This was the beginning of controversies and charges made by persons who do not know or understand that the text of recorded revelation can be edited and “changed.”

First, we must recognize that Joseph Smith’s purposeful changes are in a different category from copying errors. Orson Pratt, who worked closely with him, described some of these changes:

“Joseph, the Prophet, in selecting the revelations from the Manuscripts, and arranging them for publication, did not arrange them according to the order of the date in which they were given, neither did he think it necessary to publish them all in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, but left them to be published more fully in his History. Hence, paragraphs taken from the revelations of a later date, are, in a few instances, incorporated with those of an earlier date. Indeed, at the time of compilation, the Prophet was inspired in several instances to write additional sentences and paragraphs to the earlier revelations. In this manner the Lord did truly give ‘line upon line, here a little and there a little,’ the same as He did to a revelation that Jeremiah received. And even though this revelation was burned by the wicked king of Israel, the Lord revealed the central message again with great numbers of additional content. (See Jeremiah xxxvi.32.)” (Millennial Star 17 [25 Apr. 1857]: 260.)”

MY RESPONSE: If you read the above excerpt, you can clearly see that what David Whitmer has said is not entirely true. Orson Pratt, one of the Apostles at that time, I believe, clearly refute the claims of Whitmer.

Also, I would definitely love to spend time with you around the campfire if even the chance. It's gonna be so cosy!

Ray Farmer
· Nov 27

So, we believe Joseph received revelations and sloppy scribes jotted them down. The revelations went out into the ether, were published and only then Joseph picked up the Book of Commandments and notice errors. He wasn’t involved in any of the publication, no proof reading for example. He didn’t read the revelations that were printed in the Times and Seasons. He didn’t read nor teach from the revelations written down where he would have seen errors.

All that is a bit much for the honest in heart to accept.

What are we called on to believe? That God says something by divine revelation and then later says “Oh, did I forget to mention……?” or “Yeah, I know what I said, but what I really meant was…..”.

Look at the first account of the first vision. Joseph says Jesus came to him. In 1838 he now sees the Father and the Son. Are we to believe in 1838 Joseph said, “Oh, did I not mention that the creator and ruler of the universe was there, too?”

What a mess. this is why I try to avoid Church History. I assure you that I am very familiar with it, having studied and taught it through the years. It is too unreliable due to edits, omissions and distortions. I stick with scriptural doctrines and leave history out of the considerations.

Justin Koh
· Nov 27

YOU SAID: All that is a bit much for the honest in heart to accept.

MY RESPONSE: I don't believe that is what God would say. My point here is that as God can give Joseph Smith revelations that are related to past revelations, thus there won't be a need to include another section in D&C about the added revelations. So the smart thing to do is to lump it up into one section.

You have to know that God is perfect, He will not forget or reveal to us vague revelations. He has always been clear. It is man who do err, who do make mistakes, not God.

As you know, God reveals things to us line upon line, precept upon precept. God will not reveal everything to us because then we would not be able to require faith.

YOU SAID: Look at the first account of the first vision. Joseph says Jesus came to him. In 1838 he now sees the Father and the Son. Are we to believe in 1838 Joseph said, “Oh, did I not mention that the creator and ruler of the universe was there, too?”

MY RESPONSE: I have another excerpt that you should read in regards to the multiple accounts of the First Vision:

The Church celebrates the unifying message of the multiple First Vision accounts

as part of its popular Gospel Topics Essays

selections:

“The various accounts of the First Vision tell a consistent story, though naturally they differ in emphasis and detail.

“Historians expect that when an individual retells an experience in multiple settings to different audiences over many years, each account will emphasize various aspects of the experience and contain unique details.”

There is scriptural precedent for such variations. Consider the multiple scriptural accounts of Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus and the Apostles’ experience on the Mount of Transfiguration.

“Some have mistakenly argued that any variation in the retelling of the story is evidence of fabrication,” the essay notes. “To the contrary, the rich historical record enables us to learn more about this remarkable event than we could if it were less well documented.”

Also, I can give you another example in the Bible as well. We are familiar with the Synoptic Gospels in the New Testament. They are very similar to each other but yet they have things that were taken out or added in that is different from each other. Are you going to say that they are false, OF COURSE NOT. Because the Synoptic Gospels are written for their various audiences under different circumstances, and according to the memory of those three apostles (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

YOU SAID: What a mess. this is why I try to avoid Church History. I assure you that I am very familiar with it, having studied and taught it through the years. It is too unreliable due to edits, omissions and distortions. I stick with scriptural doctrines and leave history out of the considerations.

MY RESPONSE: I would have to agree with you a 100%, my friend. Church history is rather shady, because the Church is made up of imperfect men and women. I agree that we should stick to scriptural doctrines and leave history out of the considerations.

YES, that will another thing that we can agree on!

By the way, where did you get your Book of Mormon from? It looks interesting! (Please don't ignore this, I have made mentioned of it and you have yet to reply on this).

Ray Farmer
· Nov 28

Mooseifer, in the pattern of Christopher, means Moose Bringer. Christopher is Christ-bringer or bearer of Christ and Lucifer, oddly, means light-bringer. Mooseifer is not as nefarious as it seems.

My Book of Mormon is my own publication. I can’t stand using the regular new version because all those useless references at the bottom waste too much space. The paper is too thin and the margins too small for notation. The binding was used with the assumption that the editions won’t really be studied that much, I am thinking. So I created a book with think pages (20 wt), adequate margins and a stapled binding that I reinforce before stapling. Additionally, if you look down the left side of the page, there are circles from 1–44. These serve two purposes. When cross referencing, I can just jot down the page number and line. So, instead of writing, for example, Helaman 14:29, a simple and space saving 44:39 (page 44, line 39). I have a pocketsize edition so I can look up the references in the margins without losing my place in the regular edition. I have gone through several of these, starting a fresh copy when the margins are too full.

There’s more!

The circles in the left column are used to reference the Plan of Salvation Chart, which is numbered. If I shade a reference on the page about the State of Probation in orange, Probation is #5 on the chart and so I color in the circle by the number five in orange! So, I can go from page to page and look for a shaded five circle to study Probation. I see the color of the circle and I know where on the page the reference is because the color matches!

There’s More!

Sit down. I have come to believe that the sermons of John Wesley ae the best commentary on the principles of the Book of Mormon. So, I put all of his sermons into a database (by MooseLoose) paragraph by paragraph. each paragraph has an id number. I reference Wesley by the ID in red and bracketed [1298]. As I am studying, I know I found great insight on the verse in Wesley’s Sermons. I also have databases for two books by JC Ryle and Thomas Kempis. Additionally, I have the Book of Commandments in a database so I can compare the D&C with that Book, since the chapter and verses don’t match. Each of those books have different color brackets for their ID number.

I find looking up scriptures on the Church site is slow and cumbersome, so I have all the scriptures in a database with handy features that make copying and pasting on Quora a breeze. That’s why all my references are consistent in format.

Of course, nothing beats simple reading and reading the Book of Mormon over and over. You can’t search for something you don’t know is there. I certainly have read it hundreds of times.

To make reading fun, I create booklets of different parts of the Book of Mormon such as “King Benjamin and His People”, “Noah, Abinadi and Alma”, “Ammonihah”, “The Zoramites”, etc. These books have the same margins and reference scheme as explained above. Sometimes I compile by topic such as “Probation”, “Children of God”, and “Gentiles on the Promise Land”. I do this with informative Conference talks and kick-Butt sermons and articles, too.

All of the above booklets are put in HTML so that I can listen to them while I do my mountain-man tasks. I divided Luke and John into 7 parts each so I can listen to 1/7 Gospel a day and hear one complete gospel every week.

I could go on. But by now you think I am a freak. Are you sorry you asked?

Justin Koh
· Nov 29

Hey, my friend, I haven't heard from you in a while. Have you seen my replies? If my replies did not appear in your Qoura notifications page for some reason, I can send them again.

Ray Farmer
· Dec 2

Along with my Mountain Man tasks, I got dumped on by a bunch of snow.

I have also redone all my booklets so that you can print them or listen to them if you have a screen reader. The listening pages have the verse numbers removed for easy listening.

Find the links to these wonderful files Here:

Deep Dives

I’ll get to your comments later.

Justin Koh
· Dec 2

Oh dear, are you alright? What happened?

But anyways, thanks for the reply, and for the files. I was getting worried because I did not receive any of your replies for the past few days.

Justin Koh
· Nov 28

I'm not sorry that I asked, and I definitely don't think you are a freak. I just see your devotion in studying the Book of Mormon and your love for the Word of God.

I have to say I'm impressed, because never have I ever seen a man like you, who invest so much of their time and resources, in trying your very best to understand and interpret the scriptures correctly. Your spirit and your willingness to learn and receive revelations from God is something that is inspirational, and something that I hope Latter-day Saints should follow, including myself.

Anyways, is your publication of the Book of Mormon on sale? I would want such a copy because, like you, I find the Church's version of the Book of Mormon have pages that are too thin to highlight or write on. Your version of the Book of Mormon looks much better as there are more spaces by the side.

Please go on! I would love to hear more about how you study the scriptures!

Ray Farmer
· Nov 27

I will demonstrate my Book of Mormon and somewhat of my method of study in another comment. I promise.

SAYS YOU: " there won't be a need to include another section in D&C about the added revelations. So the smart thing to do is to lump it up into one section."

ME: I just have nothing to say on this. This is the recepee for confusion. If anybody commented on a section in a book or conference talk and the section changes like the writing on the liahona....Well, it's a mess.

This so called "preface" (Section 1) includes the verse:

Doctrine and Covenants 1

37. Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39. For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 1, Page 6

7 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them, shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself, and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants, it is the same: For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever: Amen.

I include both editions because it says the same thing. The Book of Commandments went to the printer with "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken....Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful". Joseph saw what was sent to the printer. You will recall the story in Church History where the Printing press in Independence was destroyed by the Mob. The little girls save the pages. Remember that story? The pages of the Book of Commandments were what they risked their lives to save.

David Whitmer prophesied the destruction of the press and the driving of the saints from Independence. He read the following in the Book of Commandments:

Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 16, Page 41

22 And I command you, that you preach naught but repentance; and show not these things, neither speak these things unto the world, for they cannot bear meat, but milk they must receive:

And here they were, printing them up! As you know, a citizen of Independence got a hold of the Book of Commandments and came across, probably,

Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 54, Page 127

43 And thus, even as I said, if ye are faithful, ye shall assemble yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri, which is the land of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies.

Theses citizens smelled trouble and took action. This is the origins of the mobocracy in Missouri.

Before I give you the details on what I just wrote, I will show you what the modern D&C says:

Doctrine and Covenants 19:21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.

David Whitmer wrote of this incident in RELATIVE TO PUBLISHING THE REVELATIONS.

Publishing the early revelations, or any of them, was contrary to the will of the Lord, as I will show you from the revelations themselves. The revelations in the Book of Commandments up to June, 1829, were given through the "stone," through which the Book of Mormon was translated. These are the only revelations that can be relied upon, and they are not law. The Lord told us not to teach them for doctrine; they were given mostly to individuals, the persons whom God chose in commencing His work for their individual instruction, and the church had no need of them. They should have been kept with the sacred papers and records of the church, and never published in a book to become public property for the eyes of the world. It was not necessary for the whole church to ever see them. The written word is full on all matters pertaining to the Church of Christ. Of course I believe in God revealing His will to His servants in these days, by the various gifts of the Holy Ghost; but I believe in it according to the Scriptures. In the revelations themselves are positive commands to keep these things from the world, that they are sacred, etc. A revelation was given to Oliver Cowdery in April, 1829, (Sec. v:11, 13), in which he is told that he would be granted a gift "to translate even as my servant Joseph," warning him as follows: "Remember, it is sacred, and cometh from above.... Trifle not with sacred things....Make not thy gift known unto any, save it be those who are of thy faith." But they published these things in a book, and made them known to the world!

In a revelation to Martin Harris (Sec. 18) concerning endless punishment, are these words: "And I command you that you preach naught but repentance; and show not these things, neither speak these things unto the world, for they cannot bear meat, but milk they must receive: wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish." This revelation reads as I have quoted it, in the Book of Commandments; but in the Doctrine and Covenants it has been changed to read thus: "Show not these things unto the world, until it is wisdom in me." The words, "until it is wisdom in me," were added to this revelation. You see they had to add these words in order to publish the revelations. Judge for yourselves, brethren: I will make no farther comments to magnify the errors of the leaders of the church. My policy throughout will be to speak of no more of their errors than is necessary in order to prove all false doctrines as being false, and establishing the doctrine of Christ as it is set forth in the written word.

The main reason why the printing press was destroyed, was because they published the Book of Commandments. It fell into the hands of the world, and the people of Jackson county, Missouri, saw from the revelations that they were considered by the church as intruders upon the land of Zion, as enemies to the church, and that they should be cut off out of the land of Zion and sent away. The people seeing these things in the Book of Commandments became the more enraged, tore down the printing press, and drove the church out of Jackson county. (See Doc. and Cov., Sections 52:9, 64:7, 45:15.) "Which is the land of your inheritance. Which is now the land of your enemies." "And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land." "And now I say unto you, keep these things from going abroad unto the world, until it is expedient in me, that ye may accomplish this work in the eyes of the people, and in the eyes of your enemies, that they may not know your works until ye have accomplished the thing which I have commanded you." This is sufficient. I will quote no more to show you that the leaders made a mistake in publishing the revelations in a book. It is too plain.

Brethren, does it not look strange that they should have been so blind as to go ahead and publish these revelations in the face of this plain language to keep these things from the world? It surely does look strange.

I will now tell you of a prophecy which the Lord gave through me to Brothers Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon, of what should come to pass if they printed those revelations. In the spring of 1832, in Hiram, Ohio, Brothers Joseph and Sydney, and others, concluded that the revelations should be printed in a book. A few of the brethren — including myself — objected to it seriously. We told them that if the revelations were published, the world would get the books, and it would not do; that it was not the will of the Lord that the revelations should be published.

But Brothers Joseph and Sydney would not listen to us, and said they were going to send them to Independence to be published. I objected to it and withstood Brothers Joseph and Sydney to the face. Brother Joseph said as follows: "Any man who objects to having these revelations published, shall have his part taken out of the Tree of Life and out of the Holy City." The Spirit of God came upon me and I prophesied to them in the name of the Lord: "That if they sent those revelations to Independence to be published in a book, the people would come upon them and tear down the printing press, and the church would be driven out of Jackson county." Brothers Joseph and Sydney laughed at me. Early in the spring of 1833, at Independence, Mo., the revelations were printed in the Book of Commandments. Many of the books were finished and distributed among the members of the church, and through some of the unwise brethren, the world got hold of some of them. From that time the ill-feeling toward us began to increase; and in the summer of 1833 the mob came upon us, tore down the printing press, and drove the church out of Jackson county. Brothers Joseph and Sydney then saw that I did have some of the Spirit of God, after my prophecy had been fulfilled. To show you that Brother Joseph and myself still loved each other as brethren after this, I will tell you that he had so much confidence in me that in July, 1834, he ordained me his successor as "Prophet Seer and Revelator" to the Church. He did this of his own free will and not at any solicitation whatever on my part. I did not know what he was going to do until he laid his hands upon me and ordained me.

Now, bear in mind, brethren, that I am not claiming this office; as I have told you, I do not believe in any such an office in the church. I was then in error in believing that there was such an office in the Church of Christ. I suppose this is news to many of you — that Brother Joseph ordained me his successor — but it is in your records, and there are men now living who were present in that council of elders when he did it, in the camp of Zion, on Fishing River, Missouri, July, 1834.

This is why many of the brethren came to me after Brother Joseph was killed, and importuned me to come out and lead the church. I refused to do so. Christ is the only leader and head of his church.

Anyway, this fluid approach to the Word of God is crazy and I refuse to believe any such working of God.

Justin Koh
· Nov 28

Hey, my friend, I agree with you that “this fluid approach to the Word of God is crazy and I refuse to believe any such working of God". Church history is too shady and I also hate discussing such topics because I believe scriptures/doctrines are what we should be discussing and focusing our attention on. But I will reply to what you have stated.

MY RESPONSE:

I wouldn't really trust the words of just these two people you have mentioned. First, Martin Harris, the guy who lost the Book of Lehi or rather the 116 pages of manuscript, purposely or accidentally, I'm can't say for sure. Anyways, he was rebaptized into the Church before he died, which means that, very likely he accepted D&C as scripture.

As for David Whitmer, although what he has said may be true, but I can't know for sure. After all, he has no one to back up the truthfulness or the authenticity of what he has said, but himself.

But this is what Elder Marlin K. Jensen had to say in 2009:

One of Joseph Smith’s tasks in reviewing the manuscripts prior to their publication was to “correct those errors or mistakes which he may discover by the Holy Spirit.” Joseph knew from experience that the human process of writing down revelations, copying them into manuscript books, and then passing them through various hands in preparation for publication inevitably introduced unintentional errors. Sometimes changes were required to clarify wording. Occasionally, later revelations would supersede or update previously received revelations, necessitating the editing of documents to alter previous versions. Various other changes were also made from time to time. Most of these, such as dividing the text into verses or clarifying meaning, did not involve substantive corrections.

Hey, my friend. I haven't heard from you for quite some time, is everything alright?
Dec 1, 4:03 AM
Justin Koh

If you didn't receive the replies I posted on Quora a couple of days ago, please let me know. I can repost them
Dec 1, 4:04 AM

I get confused bigtime when there are several comments-on-comment threads going on. but as explained, I have been re composing all the things I study and listen to so that you can make good prints if you want to try studying the way I do.
Dec 2, 2:44 PM

Once you open a pdf, you can print them on your printer double sided. Make sure the setting is “short edge binding” and high quality if you want the graphics to come out good.
Dec 2, 2:45 PM

If your printer does not do double sided (like mine doesn’t), print odd pages only. then put the pages back in the printer and pick Even pages only and click “reverse order”. Royal pain.
Dec 2, 2:47 PM

Then staple at 5.5 inches if you have a deep stapler. Then fold!
Dec 2, 2:47 PM
Justin Koh

Thanks for recomposing all of these wonderful materials for me, my friend. I really do appreciate it! And sorry for keeping you busy for the past few days.
Dec 2, 6:49 PM

It needed to be done, but doing it fr a friend made it enjoyable. I haven’t done a lot of document creation for a couple of years, so that was a bit of a challenge.
Dec 2, 9:03 PM

Do you have a text-to-speech app? I find that listening to those resources makes any task or trip a joy. I listen so much that I can almost talk along with the robot reading them. to me that is very important. 2 Nephi 31:13 says:
Dec 2, 9:07 PM

…then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels,
Dec 2, 9:08 PM

The explanation is in chapter 32:3:
Dec 2, 9:09 PM

Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ;
Dec 2, 9:10 PM

There was a talk by Bruce McConkie where he said the words of the scriptures are his words. As a young feller I had no idea what he meant. As a fossil, I get it. As one dedicates oneself to the Word, the Word becomes one’s vocabulary and the concepts become ones own. One begins to reason with the reason of the Word.
Dec 2, 9:13 PM

Anyway, I cleaned up the selections so that they are optimized for t2t apps.
Dec 2, 9:14 PM

Here is an example that works good on t2s (not t2t - text to speech):
Dec 2, 9:15 PM

Unashamed
Dec 2, 9:15 PM

I listen to that all the time. I wish it was me!
Dec 2, 9:16 PM
Justin Koh

Do you have a recommendation for a t2s app?
Dec 2, 10:16 PM
Justin Koh

What's the name of the Bruce Mcconkie talk?
Dec 2, 10:17 PM
Justin Koh

Is the “Unshamed" document written by you?
Dec 2, 10:18 PM

The app I use is an app I got in the google play store called t2s. The logo is a T italicized in a green circle. I think I had it on my I-phone, too. You can change voice pitch and speed. There are different voices as well.
Dec 2, 10:48 PM

Let me look for Bruce’s talk….
Dec 2, 10:48 PM
Justin Koh

That's a great app, let me download it as well
Dec 2, 10:49 PM

The Fellowship of the unashamed
Dec 2, 10:53 PM

“In speaking of these wondrous things I shall use my own words, though you may think they are the words of scripture, words spoken by other Apostles and prophets.

True it is they were first proclaimed by others, but they are now mine, for the Holy Spirit of God has borne witness to me that they are true, and it is now as though the Lord had revealed them to me in the first instance. I have thereby heard his voice and know his word”

.
Dec 2, 10:59 PM

The Purifying Power of Gethsemane
Dec 2, 11:00 PM

Great quote! It struck me when I heard it in conference. I have quoted the concept since, but it was great finding as spoken.
Dec 2, 11:02 PM
Justin Koh

It indeed is a great quote! So inspiring!
Dec 3, 1:25 AM
Justin Koh

By the way, is your Book of Mormon publication online?
Dec 3, 1:28 AM

I only print out portions, although I often read the Book cover to cover. I select portions of specific study or events. Specific study would be how we are Children of God, Gentiles of the Promised land, State of Probation, Who is to be baptized, and etc. The amazing thing is that when I read the Book page my page, I can easily find a cross reference included in the “Salvation” collection. This is also my experience while reading the OT and NT and the early revelations in the Book of Commandments.That Salvation collection is like a Christmas tree on which I place many ornaments from far and wide. You probably aren’t so thrilled with my flow chart, but Bible and Book of Mormon verses and concepts can be placed somewhere on the “tree” and they make sense and give insight into the verse as it takes place on the outline.
Dec 3, 2:08 AM

The files I prepared for you are the closest thing to publishing any of the study aids I love. I dedicate the “deep dive” page to you.
Dec 3, 2:33 AM

In the opening comment, I expressed the fact that I am a heretic to LDSaints and protestants alike. I keep my discoveries, for the most part, in my heart. My participation on Quora is essentially my bouncing ideas against the LDS wall to see if there are flaws in my current views. To place ones ideas in a situation where the best and most fervent counter-arguments is the only way to become wiser, adjust beliefs, and rest secure that we have done our best to come to our best conclusions. Otherwise, I live the principles I love and that make me inexpressibly happy and keep them to myself.
Dec 3, 2:41 AM
Justin Koh

I can't find your opening comment in the “deep dives" page
Dec 3, 3:05 AM
Justin Koh

By the way, I don't regard you as a heretic, because it does have a negative connotation to it.

To me, you are a good man that tries his best to seek for the way of God.
Dec 3, 3:08 AM
Justin Koh

And I totally agree with what you have said in your last comment. It is through holding dialogues with people that may have a different perspective or belief from us, and conversing in a friendly and mutually respectful environment, about our differences and adjusting our beliefs whenever necessary. It's what we have been doing, but I believe you have helped me to learn so much more than what I can offer you.
Dec 3, 3:13 AM
Justin Koh

Thanks for “deep dive" page once again, I will deeply cherish it!
Dec 3, 3:14 AM

Bck in 1974, as a soldier on the verge of being an alcoholic,I was riding an army bus from Seoul 30 miles south to where I was stationed. Totally down and feeling lost, I looked at the silhouette of the hills in the distance and said, “Lord (who I didn’t know), if I saw a light on the hill and I knew it was you, I would tell them to stop the bus and I would follow you for the rest of my life”. I saw no light that night, which deeply disappointed me. A few days later I found the Book of Mormon an marvelous story in and of itself).
Dec 3, 12:48 PM

The next day, I preached my first sermon to my worldly friends about Lehi’s vision. The next day I talked them about Adam’s fall and the opposition in all things. Amazing miracles ensued (more stories here!).
Dec 3, 12:51 PM

Although I was extremely busy helping to manage an orphanage and trying to meet the kids’ needs, I taught English to the executives of the Mitsubishi, Korean branch, I still must have manged to cleave to the Book of Mormon. I was baptized in Korea, by the way. When I was transferred to Washington 8 months later, it was recognized that I knew the Book of Mormon well enough to be called to teach Institute.
Dec 3, 12:54 PM

I tell you this so you know somewhat why I am such a Book of Mormon freak. It was the light I prayed for and not only have I kept my promise to follow the Lord if He showed me the “light”, but I have found eternal happiness on the journey.
Dec 3, 12:56 PM

So, as my little tag-line says, I am zealous for and Jealous of the Book of Mormon. I weigh all concepts against that Book. It is both plain to me and more precious than I can express.
Dec 3, 12:58 PM

studying the Book of Mormon and attempting to live the principles found in it is my great joy in life.
Dec 3, 12:59 PM

I have gained so much from our conversations. I am not blowing smoke. I think about all the things you shared and have come to value them. I really do take Quora seriously as a wonderful means to wisdom. I live in the mountains and don’t really talk to many folks, so this thread has been very valuable. Do not think otherwise!
Dec 3, 1:02 PM
Justin Koh

Wow, you have such an amazing testimony of the Book of Mormon, my friend. As a convert myself, I can truly understand what you meant when the Lord showed you the “light". It is such a marvelous experience when the Lord, for the first time, showed me the “light" before I was baptized, it makes me feel that the Lord has prepared me to receive the Book of Mormon into my life, that I would believe when He revealed the “light" unto me.
Dec 3, 7:10 PM
Justin Koh

To this day, I feel privileged that I get to believe in the things God has revealed to me, because not many people in this world choose to walk the strait and narrow path, many in this world willingly choose to walk the broad and wide path
Dec 3, 7:15 PM
Justin Koh

Surprisingly, although there are more Christians in this world than those of other religions, not many of them will be in God's eternal kingdom, because they lack one factor, and that is, they refuse to believe easily like a little child would, and go where God wants them to go.
Dec 3, 7:18 PM
Justin Koh

Thanks for appreciating and valuing the things that I have shared! I really hope to have more discussions with you like the one we had, because I also believe the fact that when we discuss and search the scriptures, we would learn and grow together spiritually.
Dec 3, 7:29 PM
Justin Koh

Anyways, you talked about the fact that you found the Book of Mormon. Could you share more about it? I would love to hear your testimony of the Book of Mormon!
Dec 3, 7:31 PM

Seriously, I can start my "story" back when I was around 4 years old as I contemplated the stations of the cross in a little prayer book that my mom handed to me while attending mass with her. Or I can start with myself in my early teens when I found a very old family bible in my grandmothers attic after which I determined to read it. Because my family made fun of me, I set up a light in the fruit cellar so that I could read it secretly. I could start with a special experience in basic training where I stole away late one dark night to the Army Chapel where I came to know that Jesus is alive and that He deeply loves me and sees me. But I begin right before I came across the Book of Mormon. I will not, for brevity's sake, not supply all the details that I would if we were sitting by a campfire. There, as Boyd Packer said, "What I shall say I could say much better if we were alone, just the two of us. It would be easier also if we had come to know one another, and had that kind of trust which makes it possible to talk of serious, even sacred things. If we were that close, because of the nature of what I shall say, I would study you carefully as I spoke. If there should be the slightest disinterest or distraction, the subject would quickly be changed to more ordinary things".

The Mediator

I was trained as a Photographic Equipment Repairman by the Army (yes, that is in the Army). After training, I was transferred to Korea, 30 miles south of Seoul where thee was a photo lab that had a cabinet full of broken equipment. I was assigned as a Clerk Typist in an Alcohol and Drug Abuse office! At that point, I was getting pretty expert in alcohol abuse! Anyway, the office was manned by a black guy, William, a Puerto Rican guy, Sherlock, and myself. After trying for four months to get transferred up north where I could use my training to meet a real need, I gave up trying and tried to make the best use of my time. The three of us created an organization to help mixed race children (created and abandoned by US soldiers) because babies mixed with whites were accepted by Koreans but mixed race babies were on their own. We were everywhere raising funds and having activities. we were well known around the camp.

Additionally, I talked my two friends into taking some college courses. In the course of time, I discovered that the professor was a Mormon Chaplain. I told my friends that interesting tid-bit. They were shocked! We can't be known for helping minorities and yet be taught by someone who belongs to the most racist church on earth! We decided (not me, really) to confront the professor. We met in the library for that purpose.

I soon tired of the conversation William was having with the teacher regarding "Blacks and the Priesthood" and I walked around the library during the discussion. At the end, William was satisfied with the explanation. We went back to the office and I saw him throw something in the bottom drawer of his desk. I asked him what it was. He said that the teacher gave him a Book of Mormon. I asked him if he was going to read it. Well, if he was not going to read it, could I have it. He gave it to me.

I began reading it with great interest. As I stated, the next day I told the two about Lehi's Vision. The next I told them about opposition in all things. They began to mock, telling me I couldn't be a Mormon because they don't drink or smoke or cuss. I was shocked that such people existed, but confidently told them that none of that would be a problem if I had a good reason to quit. I had no interest in being a Mormon, anyway. They mocked. I quit smoking and drinking and cussing that day only because I was challenged. No spiritual motive, I must point out.

I continued to read. I was attacked by five demons late one night. I requested the Sargent to let me change rooks because I thought mine was haunted! More mocking. Sigh.

Shockingly, I received my transfer to Seoul that week! I cannot emphasize what a miracle this was, to be transferd "in theater" after four months of attempts. I was kept there until I received the Book of Mormon. I spent the days given to me to pack to read the Book of Mormon with intensity. I recall as clear as day sitting on my duffer bag waiting for the truck to take me north.

Once in Seoul, I was put in the barracks room with 4 heroin addicts just returning from Viet Nam. But I remember like it was yesterday, once they were out for the night, going to the center of the room, kneeling, and praying about the Book of Mormon. I had already concluded that it was true. I got spiritual confirmation all the same.

The professor alerted the district missionaries that I would be transferring. They found me, but didn't tell me they were LDS. Instead, they took me to an LDS Children's Home to meet the kids. I was surprised that everyone claimed to believe the Book of Mormon just like me! They confessed they werre missionaries and that they were alerted to intercept me only later.

They gave me the lessons. I accepted the teachings simply because I knew the Book was true. I guess if the Book was true, the Church they were telling me about, which believed the Book, must be true. I was baptized 3 months later (for some reason, the branch president wanted to delay my baptism. I wonder about that to this day)

I was soon consumed with helping the Children's' home. I gave them all my money and got a gig teaching conversational English to the Korean Executives of the Mitsubishi company to help out more. They knew I was doing it to help out the kids and were very, very generous. I helped the kids turn into a choir that became famous on the tv and radio and, more important, self-supporting.

I then got transferred to Washington, Fort Lewis, where I began saving and studying and otherwise preparing for my mission. I would avoid company and, instead, road the fort shuttle around and around so I could read the scriptures in peace. I would go to the mountains after work with my guitar and scriptures to read and sing hymns and pray. I was also called to teach the Book of Mormon in the Institute of religion.

Getting out of the army, I applied to go on a mission. I was sent to the Milan, Italy Mission. On return, I was married in the Temple, and served in many leadership callings (Elders Quorum President, Young Men's President, and 24 years as a scout master) and many more teaching callings like Institute, Gospel Doctrine, Primary and Seminary. The last proved to be my "downfall".

If you wish to trace my "downfall" after this point, I guess we can go there.
Dec 4, 1:50 PM

On the subject of Church support for “gay marriage Law, I put some talking points together:LDS LGBQ+ Support
Dec 4, 3:13 PM
Justin Koh

Wow, your testimony and story is spectacular! You are a man of faith, my friend. We share so many similarities, as I was reading your comment, I was also a former Catholic, what a coincidence!

Also, when I read the Book of Mormon for the very first time after my second session with the missionaries, I immediately know that it is true, although I was quite disturbed at that point, the fact that God commanded Nephi to kill Laban. But I knew the Book of Mormon is true and I prayed that very night, and received a spiritual confirmation as well.

Anyways, I would love to hear what happened that caused your downfall. And also, could you share more about the fact that you were attacked by 5 demons and having haunted rooks? It must have been a frightening experience!
Dec 4, 8:53 PM
Justin Koh

I will definitely look into the link you sent me with regards to gay marriage
Dec 4, 9:43 PM

I have a task or two, but let me show you something I have written regarding the death of laban:

Laban as Type of Christ
Dec 4, 10:03 PM

did I write rooks? I meant room. I thought my room was haunted because of the demonic attack!
Dec 4, 10:10 PM

I t was just days before I came across the Book of Mormon. It was years later before I made the connection, so I can’t tell you how many days for sure.
Dec 4, 10:11 PM

I was lying in bed. the only light was coming thru the window from a distant street light. Some light seeped from under the door.
Dec 4, 10:12 PM

I was wide awake, thinking. I looked up over to the head of my bed and saw a shadowy person standing there leaning against the post that held the upper, unassigned bunk. I looked at the foot to find another, likewise casually leaning. frightened, I went to get up and one was reaching down from the top bunk. I avoided his arm as my feet hit the floor. Dashing toward the light switch, I had to jump over one laying on the floor. I reached the light and, flipping the switch, illuminated the room. I found myself alone.
Dec 4, 10:16 PM

Since, I have cast out demons on occasion. One time, I had a sister missionary who was oppressed by depression. She was the best missionary I have ever known, so I didn’t suspect that sin was the problem. I laid my hands on her and began to bless her and cast out the devils. There was audible, hideous laughing as it left the sister. There were other details, but I haven’t thought about that in years.
Dec 4, 10:19 PM

I visited someone who called me about pool balls bouncing around on their own accord in the basement. I was old hat by that time, so I entered the house certain of my success of casting out the devils. The man opened the door. He had an old masonic sword in his hand and he was frightened. As I started down the stairs, a bunch of bottles he had stored on the steps all started to fall down the staircase. I cast out whatever was there and they never returned.
Dec 4, 10:22 PM

Serious, I have not thought of these incidents in years! I usually think on the other, spectacular and lovely experiences. but I know the evil one is real and I know that he is a weakling in the presence of the godly (at least those making an effort to be!)
Dec 4, 10:24 PM
Justin Koh

Your experience sounds somewhat similar to the First Vision, where Joseph Smith was overcomed by a dark power before seeing a pillar of light. And you were attacked by demons before you came across the Book of Mormon. Can you see the similarities?

You are an amazing and godly man! I've never heard stories like this. But when stories like these do happen, that just means that the devil is trying to prevent you from getting that “light".
Dec 4, 10:30 PM
Justin Koh

I will definitely read the article you have written about Laban later on. Please send me more such articles!
Dec 4, 10:32 PM
Justin Koh

And you did wrote rooks, I thought you were talking about rookies or something!
Dec 4, 10:33 PM
Justin Koh

Those who are able to cast out demons are those who are faithful unto the Lord Jesus Christ. That again tells me that you are a man of faith, and not a heretic!
Dec 4, 10:35 PM

Notice that satan always shows up at our most vulnerable moments…the very beginning. The beginning of creation, he shows up in the garden.The beginning of Jesus’ ministry in the temptations. Joseph Smith, as you pointed out and with me. Satan may have been around, but he uses the same old tired tricks.
Dec 4, 10:50 PM

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Dec 4, 10:51 PM

I will not leave you with a demon story. That doesn’t seem right to me. Here is a wonderful story.
Dec 4, 10:52 PM

I was a mailman. Between delivering a street and going on to the next, I would read something that I could ponder. On one occasion, in the worse part of the innercity of Detroit, I sat reading “the Life of Christ” by Farrar (on of talmadges main sources when he wrote Jesus the Christ). I was so over whelmed by the Spirit that I blurted out “Heavenly Father, I LOVE you” I packed my mailbag and started down a street that had businesses.
Dec 4, 10:55 PM
Justin Koh

Is this before or after coming across the Book of Mormon?
Dec 4, 10:56 PM

Being in a very bad part of town, you keep your eyes open. I looked a short distance up the street and a dirty old bum was stumbling my way. He looked harmless. I opened the door of a store to enter about the time he was passing me. As he passed, he said, “You know He loves you, too”. This didn’t make any impression until a few seconds had passed. I stopped and returned to the street (the door didn’t have time to close), looked down the street to ask him what he meant. There was nobody in sight.
Dec 4, 10:59 PM

Before
Dec 4, 10:59 PM

by a few days. I don’t remember how many.
Dec 4, 11:00 PM

the mailman incident was about 20 years after discovering the Book of Mormon, late 90s.
Dec 4, 11:06 PM

This is a joy sharing these things. Like I said, I am regarded as an heretic, so no one seems interested. There was a time members would call me from all over the stake with Gospel/Scripture questions. I chuckle when I think how I had a reputation of being a scholar that spread far and wide. This fact, not a boast, compelled me to purposefully fade away slowly when I decided I couldn’t go along with the church. My “apostasy” would have been disturbing to many members. I didn’t want to do that. It was a tough time. So coming across someone who is friendly and open minded is an eternal delight!
Dec 4, 11:13 PM
Justin Koh

I don't believe in treating anyone with disrespect or to look down on them simply because of doctrinal or theological differences, even if they are from a different faith altogether, because that kind of rude and disrespectful behavior is not what Christ taught in the scriptures. He said to love thy neighbor!
Dec 4, 11:54 PM
Justin Koh

As disciples of Christ, we are called to be Christlike. No one should be treated differently. John 8:7 comes to my mind when I think of treating anyone any different
Dec 4, 11:58 PM
Justin Koh

I would love to hear about your “downfall", and how you were treated as a heretic by members of your ward, I assume.
Dec 5, 12:16 AM

An interesting exchange is developing:

Ray Farmer's answer to What is hell according to the Latter Day Saints?

You may find the insight into the event at Ammonihah of interest.
Dec 5, 2:30 PM
Justin Koh

I have actually read what you have said in the link you just provided yesterday, and I've got the answer, challenge accepted!
Dec 5, 5:42 PM
Justin Koh

The answer is that we can safely assume that the outer darkness is hell and the degrees of glory is Heaven. Simple!
Dec 5, 5:43 PM

Doctrine and Covenants 76

81. And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83. These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84. These are they who are thrust down to hell.

What kind of people are these?

103. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

So, If the Telestial Kingdom is the Kingdom of God (heaven, I assume), this presents a problem.

1 Corinthians 6

9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So, you let the child molester and wife beater and all the scum of the earth into the Kingdom of God! Impossible.

2 Nephi 9

15. And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.

16. And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

17. O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled.

Alma 11:37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

So, if you die in your sins, you remain in your sins. That makes you filthy. But the filthy cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, or the kingdom would be filthy. But heaven isn't. So, if the liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie are in the kingdom of heaven, or of God, the kingdom is filthy. So, the Telestial kingdom is not heaven.

I don’t think the “Three Degrees” can be supported by the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Trying to force the concept onto Scripture leaves just a mess.
Dec 5, 6:52 PM
Justin Koh

There is a distinction between heaven and the kingdom of God, my friend. The kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom, where we can dwell with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
Dec 5, 7:10 PM
Justin Koh

Heaven includes all three degrees of glory
Dec 5, 7:16 PM
Justin Koh

To elaborate, the three degrees of glory is also known as the three heavens. So, the degrees of glory is Heaven, but ONLY the Celestial Kingdom is known as the Kingdom of God.
Dec 5, 10:55 PM
Justin Koh

What are your thoughts on this?
Dec 6, 12:27 AM

Well, you had me stumped for a minute (I was chopping wood when I read your idea (get it. Stumped?). But I tried an experiment. I took the Kingdom of God in the following verses to see if your theory held up. Let’s see…
Dec 6, 12:30 AM

Changing “Heaven” For “A Kingdom Of Glory”

27. Thus we may see that the Lord is merciful unto all who will, in the sincerity of their hearts, call upon his holy name.

8. Yea, thus we see that the gate of A Kingdom of Glory is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.

Observation: Here we see that to get into a kingdom of Glory one has to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and in the sincerity of their hearts, call upon his holy name. This would be so in LDS theology.

Mosiah 5:15

Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to A Kingdom of Glory, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Observation: Not all in your kingdoms of glory have eternal life. Besides, to get into a kingdom of glory in this modification, one would have to be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works. This would not be true, either.

Mosiah 2:41

And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into A Kingdom of Glory, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

Observation: A kingdom of glory is for those that keep the commandments of God and hold out faithful to the end.

Changing Kingdom Of God For Celestial Kingdom

1 Nephi 15:35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

Observation: this would indicate that you either are in the Celestial Kingdom, or in that awful hell. this would make the terrestrail or telestial and therefore Heaven is hell.

Alma 41:4. And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the Celestial Kingdom, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--

Observation: Again, here we see that one is either in, on one hand, in the Celestial Kingdom or in endless misery in the kingdom of the devil. It just doesn't work.

I was about to change Kingdom of Heaven for Celestial Kingdom (they are the same in the Book of Mormon), but I didn't want to go thru the trouble to have you tell me that the Kingdom of Heaven are the three degrees.

Is the Kingdom of Heaven the Celestial Kingdom?
Dec 6, 12:31 AM

Agh! I wasn’t done editing when it sent!! You will get the picture, nonetheless. But, Is the Kingdom of Heaven the Celestial Kingdom?
Dec 6, 12:33 AM

Did you read the article on Laban?
Dec 6, 12:36 AM

Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial never appear in either the Book of Mormon or Bible. 1 Corinthians 15 doesn’t cut it because it mentions no Telestial glory. The problem with making the concept of degrees of Glory and divvying up everyone into them stems from this mistake.
Dec 6, 12:40 AM
Justin Koh

I have yet to read your article on Laban, but I have read the one on the LGBTQ, I have drafted my response, but let's settle the degrees of glory discussion first shall we?
Dec 6, 1:05 AM
Justin Koh

Here's my response:

In Mosiah 5:15 and Mosiah 2:41 that you have just quoted, I would like to refer to the definition of Heaven, just to clarify. When the word, “Heaven”, is used, it is to refer to either one of its two meanings. First, it refers to the place where God lives, which is the ultimate home of the faithful. Second, it refers to the degrees of glory, which are in itself, Heavens.

To know what the word, “heaven”, is referring to in a particular verse, we must look at the verse in it's entirety, even the surrounding verses, so as to determine for ourselves which one of the two meaning it is referring to. In the case of Mosiah 5:15 and Mosiah 2:41, they are all referring to the first meaning, as the clues given in the verses itself is sufficient to prove it.

Next, for 1 Nephi 15:35 that you have quoted, if the “Kingdom of God" is replaced with “Celestial Kingdom", it still makes sense, simply because it is true, if you are not in the Celestial Kingdom, you are basically cast out from the presence of Heavenly Father. Whether in the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom, you will not receive the fulness of the Father.

As for Alma 41:4, please read verse 5 for better context. Alma is comparing the righteous with the wicked, he specifically left out those in between. Notice how in verse 5 Alma said,

“for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.”

Alma is explicitly talking about the most wicked, and therefore he would also be comparing the most wicked to the most righteous. That is the comparison Alma is trying to convey, not those of us who fall in between.
Dec 6, 5:49 AM

SAYS YOU: "those of us who fall in between"

ME: And here is the key to the matter. The scriptures don't teach those that fall in between.
Dec 6, 1:20 PM

Rather than risking launching this comment before editing, I continue this response Here

One Hand, Other Hand
Dec 6, 1:21 PM

Listening to our dialogue, I discover how boring I am! sometimes I use the firehose method. That is, blasting with all I have. I see that can be noisome. But I like to leave the impression that I don’t take some obscure verse and create a system of belief. I make sure that the message is consistent throughout the scriptures. In the link, I cite the Book of Mormon extensively but I cite the Bible, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price because they all teach that there is no “in between”.
Dec 6, 1:25 PM
Dec 6, 2:03 PM

So, to help you in the challenge to place Hell on the bubble chart, I labeled said chart. Your task is to tell me the letters that indicate hell.
Dec 6, 2:04 PM
Justin Koh

You are not boring, my friend, I promise. You have been extremely engaging and insightful in our dialogue.

Now, back to the discussion. There is, again, two definitions for the word, “Hell", and I will use Guide to the Scriptures to give you a more detailed explanation to the two different definitions:

First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed Him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

So, in my opinion, hell would fall under both D and I, according to the two definitions I have provided for you respectively.
Dec 6, 7:12 PM
Justin Koh

Precisely because those in between is not mentioned or taught, the concept of the degrees of glory was revealed unto the Prophet Joseph Smith to clarify as to what would happen to those who fall in between.
Dec 6, 7:18 PM
Justin Koh

I would say that Doctrine & Covenants did talk about degrees of glory, so I do believe that D&C did teach about those that are in-between.
Dec 6, 7:19 PM
Justin Koh

Also, one more thing that can prove that you are indeed not boring, is the fact that you made the joke about being stumped, that was funny!
Dec 6, 7:23 PM

Boring! I used to play Traditional Irish Music in Detroit. I didn’t think I was overly boring and session mates would probably wish I was more boring! They weren’t keen on practical jokes nor “moment adventures”. But listening to my unending theological expositions over text-to-speech approaches insufferable. My poor faithful bride loathes a spirited scripture give and take!
Dec 6, 9:59 PM

Studying what you wrote, I see we are not that far apart except in one crucial point that makes all the difference. I will try to illustrate by redoing the bubble chart along the lines of my “Plan of Redemption” chart. I will run it past you for your corrections until it is perfect. Here is the chart so, if you wish, you can follow along:

https://mooseifer.com/quora/SalvationChart_June2022.pdf
Dec 6, 10:04 PM

So, once we pass accountability (setting an age is a mistake) we travel along line #3. If the deviation stemming from #6, responding to the Voice of the Good Shepherd (we will get to that later), we continue through our probation #5. There begins to form while in this state of probation the chains of hell which separates us (#25) from those who are along the strait and narrow #28. If we die (#15) while on line #3 and we come to the end of the day of probation, the jig is up and we go into hell 1 #16 Where we must stay until the resurrection #17. Notice that line #25 separates us permanently from the righteous in paradise also #16 (the little arrows illustrate that there is no passage across line #25. We are still on line #3. After the Resurrection #17, we go to judgement #18b and get what we feared while in hell1 #16, that is, being judged of our works that we performed during our probation #5 without mercy, just pure justice. We won’t fair well there without grace, but we will agree with the verdict because we will see that God did all to try to save us #26, #6, and #4. We will come to understand the restoration #21 and go off into hell 2 (#23) and be cast off forever (#23).
Dec 6, 10:27 PM

Your ‘D’ on the bubble chart would be my #16. Your ‘I’ on the Bubble Chart is my #20 and #23
Dec 6, 10:32 PM

That’s the bad news. Let me explain the Good News….
Dec 6, 10:32 PM

Although we are all on line #3, We are given, by grace, all kinds of helps #4. But most important, we have the voice of the Good Shepherd (#6) always calling us and enticing us, which I call the “visitation”. Notice the dotted line that illustrates that we can resist the spirit again and again until the spirit ceases to strive. But the elect who hear His voice and harden not their hearts will come to know that there is a God and that he has a standard of goodness, rectitude and righteousness (#7). We will hange direction or repent ((change our minds) and try to live that law (#8). After trying as hard as we can, we realize that we are miserable failures. it is then that we apply for the blood of the Atonement and fall at the feet of Jesus that we know is there for us because of the helps listed in #4. When we beg (that is the best description), we are justified #9. That is, we are declared reconciled to God thru the Blood of the Lamb #26. We follow Jesus “down” (humility) and now have greater power to keep his commandments. We witness to the world that we are willing to follow Jesus by a public baptism before their eyes. As we continue to keep our commitment to obey, we are visited by fire and the Holy Ghost and undergo the mighty change.. We are born again. This changes our disposition and we no longer have the desire to do evil. We are on the strait and narrow #28 and we are being sanctified #12 as time goes on and our efforts continue.
Dec 6, 10:47 PM

the double arrows from #11 to #7 indicates the constant effort. We learn something new of gods law #7 and change our minds regarding that law #8 and put our faith in Jesus to cover our previous mistakes #9 vowing to keep his commandments #10 and we are changed and changed again by the power of the Holy Ghost given us for that very purpose #11. It is a constant loop of sorts. we try to keep the commandments #10, fail, go the the atonement #9, and recommit to keep his law #7 and fail again. But as we do that, we move down line #12.
Dec 6, 10:52 PM
Justin Koh

Okay, I do agree with your statements!
Dec 6, 10:59 PM

As we move along #12, we notice that we are more and more separated(#25) from the world (those on line #3). We are not comfortable with them and they are not comfortable with us as we move toward and developing the mind of Christ #29. However, if we are not diligent we can leave live #12 and return to line #3 (#13). Notice that we land on line #3 in a spot where the spirit is still striving. Hopefully, the Voie of the Good Shepherd (#6) will call us back to the strait and narrow (#28) and we resume our Journey to #29.
Dec 6, 10:59 PM

Oh! I am not done….. I am just getting to the death of the Children of God!
Dec 6, 11:00 PM
Justin Koh

Please continue. Sorry for the rude interruption
Dec 6, 11:00 PM

The day of probation #5 ends for the righteous, too. They enjoy paradise #16 and stay there (little arrows) until the Resurrection #17. But their judgement #18a) is much different. They are judged of their works, but that doesn’t matter much because they have an advocate with the father and, when Jesus applies His Atoneing sacrifice, all will be declared blameless and therefore spotless (#19) and now fit to enter the Kingdom of God, (Kingdom of Heaven, His Kingdom, heaven) (#22) where they will be as pure as Jesus is pure. They will live with God, the Son and the Holy Ghost and the angels and all of those who went from #6 to #29!
Dec 6, 11:07 PM

There it is. I never put my chart in writing before! That was intense! How’d I do?
Dec 6, 11:08 PM

I have worked years on this chart, reading and rereading the Book of Mormon to find and change any flaws. I can’t find any on this latest edition, so I am glad to have a friend like you to correct me. Remember, this is the Plan in the Book of Mormon, so stick with that!
Dec 6, 11:11 PM

I will begin to chart out the LDS Plan and where I think you are saying the three glorious Kingdoms fit in. I will do it along the line of my Plan of Redemption (thats what it is called in the Book of Mormon) so we can compare! As I said, I have taught Seminary and Institute and have studied for almost 50 years, so I think I can do a fair enough job with your help.
Dec 6, 11:14 PM
Justin Koh

If it's restricted just to the Book of Mormon, then yes, I would agree with what you have put forth in the Plan of Redemption that you have charted out. No issues with me.
Dec 7, 1:02 AM
Justin Koh

However, just an advice, could you recreate the Plan of Redemption chart, but this time, make it more readable and understandable, because to me, it's too messy and looks all over the place.
Dec 7, 1:03 AM
Justin Koh

I would love to look at the LDS plan, once you have charted it out, I would be more than happy to help!
Dec 7, 1:05 AM
Justin Koh

You have mentioned this in your comments just now:

Studying what you wrote, I see we are not that far apart except in one crucial point that makes all the difference.

You did not address this point yet, if I'm not wrong.
Dec 7, 1:07 AM

The chart was made just for me, really. It never was meant for anyone else to figure out. My initial diagram was very simple and everyone would understand As time went on, I added more and more detail and cited those additions with the numbers along the left side of each page of my study booklets…for me. You are the first to show any interest. But my chart has helped me to understand the Book of Mormon and, indeed, the writings of Paul. I go over the chart flow in my head even without the chart before my eyes. The crucial insight is that there are but two paths that diverge and the visitation.
Dec 7, 1:30 AM
Justin Koh

I understand. But don't you wish to preach and share the Gospel with others?
Dec 7, 1:41 AM
Justin Koh

Because that's what we are called to do, even in the Book of Mormon
Dec 7, 1:41 AM

“except in one crucial point”. I think I was thinking that the point was that one can wind up in hell between death and the resurrection yet escape the hell after the judgement. I think the Book of Mormon teaches that those in hell 1 stay there until the resurrection where they will be judged and then continue to hell 2. That’s because in my Plan (we’ll call it) the day of probation ends at death and no more work can be performed thereafter. The determining factor in probation is what one does when he hears the Voice of the Good Shepherd. Hardening the heart against the Voice is the unforgivable sin that lands one in hell 1 and then hell 2. LDS doctrine teaches that the day of probation extends right before the judgement begins.
Dec 7, 1:42 AM
Justin Koh

Let's be the salt of the Earth!
Dec 7, 1:42 AM

Jacob 6:5. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I beseech of you in words of soberness that ye would repent, and come with full purpose of heart, and cleave unto God as he cleaveth unto you. And while his arm of mercy is extended towards you in the light of the day, harden not your hearts.
6. Yea, today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts; for why will ye die?
7. For behold, after ye have been nourished by the good word of God all the day long, will ye bring forth evil fruit, that ye must be hewn down and cast into the fire?
8. Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?
9. Know ye not that if ye will do these things, that the power of the redemption and the resurrection, which is in Christ, will bring you to stand with shame and awful guilt before the bar of God?
10. And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.
Dec 7, 1:44 AM
Justin Koh

I think as to why the Book of Mormon taught that those in hell 1 stay there until the resurrection where they will be judged and then continue to hell 2, is because it focuses on the most wicked and the most righteous. It did not talk about anything of those who fall in-between.
Dec 7, 1:45 AM
Justin Koh

For the most wicked, indeed, they will be cast into hell forever. It is the same as what the Church teaches
Dec 7, 1:46 AM

Up until the Church supported the Gay Marriage law, I went with my wife to the Ward and I preached the Gospel. Certainly not my chart. Here is how I look at it:
Dec 7, 1:48 AM
Justin Koh

The most wicked on Earth will continue to be the most wicked in the Spirit Prison, their wickedness would not change. That's why it's safe to say that they will remain in hell forever, simply because they are unrepentant.
Dec 7, 1:48 AM

There were overlaps between Bible and Book of Mormon based truth and LDS doctrine. I stayed in the overlap and participated in discussions and activities that were found in the overlap.
Dec 7, 1:49 AM

In “Be Good” verses, as opposed to “doctrine” verses, there is a greater overlap.
Dec 7, 1:52 AM
Justin Koh

We're those discussion fruitful?
Dec 7, 1:52 AM

staying in the overlap when discussing the Moral Law was easier.
Dec 7, 1:52 AM

Fruitful? Yes! I was the only one (no exaggeration) that cited scripture. Brothers and Sisters were edified and inspired and made it a point to tell me to my face and in email. Human hearts respond stronger to scriptures that “inspiring stories” or quotes by anyone.
Dec 7, 1:55 AM
Justin Koh

I don't agree with your first diagram, because I don't think that it is contradictory, rather the things taught by the Church clarifies those teachings found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. It not only clarifies but, as the Lord teaches His people line upon line, precept upon precept, new truths and teachings will surfaced. Although these new truths and teachings is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, it does not mean that it is contradictory, my friend.
Dec 7, 1:56 AM
Justin Koh

I am happy that those discussions were fruitful! Please continue to have such discussions with members of the Church, it will help them a whole lot.
Dec 7, 1:58 AM

On my last Sunday, I played a solo flute rendition of “lead kindly light” I played it in the spirit of prayer. multiple people told me how moving it was and some broke down in tears as they shared. I taught Gospel principles in my primary calling even while we were cooking spaghetti. I just stayed in the overlap.
Dec 7, 1:58 AM
Justin Koh

That's nice! I'm surprised that the Church allow you to hold callings despite calling you a heretic
Dec 7, 2:01 AM

By the way, when I visit churches in my area I stay in the overlap between the BoM and Bible and their Doctrine. Among Wesleyans, I quote John Wesley, to their surprise. As I told you, John Wesley has the best commentary on Book of Mormon Doctrines! This is in keeping with D&C 19

29. And thou shalt declare glad tidings, yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people that thou shalt be permitted to see.
30. And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.
31. And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.
Dec 7, 2:07 AM

ME TOO! When they call me, I tell them I don’t believe in the Church. I used to have a friend on the High Council that, when my name came up for stake callings, he would tell them it is not a good idea (I was a secret apostate). I employed my friend after they called me to the High Council!!
Dec 7, 2:09 AM

I just stay in the overlap in my comments. Having been associated with the Church for near 50 years, I know what would be upsetting and I avoid upsetting. sometimes I just sit there and shut up when, for example, they talk about Temples (every week) or draw them into a discussion about the Lord.
Dec 7, 2:15 AM

I am so scrupulous about staying in the overlap that nobody would suspect I was an heretic! They even asked me to be an Elder’s Quorum teacher telling me I am the most qualified! But I would have to delve into tenets I don’t believe, so I turned them down. I was asked to speak on Mother’s day, but I didn’t want to be on the stand facing the audience if someone dragged in Mother in Heaven.
Dec 7, 2:22 AM
Justin Koh

That's nice! Are you holding any callings as of the moment?
Dec 7, 2:30 AM
Justin Koh

Anyways I will copy and paste the things that I have said just now, in case you might have missed it out, because you haven't replied to them
Dec 7, 2:32 AM
Justin Koh

I think as to why the Book of Mormon taught that those in hell 1 stay there until the resurrection where they will be judged and then continue to hell 2, is because it focuses on the most wicked and the most righteous. It did not talk about anything of those who fall in-between.

For the most wicked, indeed, they will be cast into hell forever. It is the same as what the Church teaches

The most wicked on Earth will continue to be the most wicked in the Spirit Prison, their wickedness would not change. That's why it's safe to say that they will remain in hell forever, simply because they are unrepentant.
Dec 7, 2:33 AM
Justin Koh

I don't agree with your first diagram, because I don't think that it is contradictory, rather the things taught by the Church clarifies those teachings found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. It not only clarifies but, as the Lord teaches His people line upon line, precept upon precept, new truths and teachings will surfaced. Although these new truths and teachings is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, it does not mean that it is contradictory, my friend.
Dec 7, 2:33 AM

I resigned all my callings two weeks ago when the Church came out supporting the Gay Marriage Bill. My flute solo was my last Sunday among the saints.
Dec 7, 2:43 AM

I saw the “in Between” comment and responded with the link where I put my response (didnt want quora to crash in the middle). See Here:

One Hand, Other Hand
Dec 7, 2:47 AM
Justin Koh

Sure!
Dec 7, 2:49 AM
Justin Koh

So, does that mean you no longer attend sacrament meetings anymore?
Dec 7, 2:49 AM
Justin Koh

I will certainly get back to you after reading it!
Dec 7, 2:50 AM

"the Church clarifies those teachings found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon". The Book of Mormon is PLAIN and precious. It needs no "clarifying". I think what you think is clarifying is the Church trying to explain the contradictions.

Example: Alma 11

26. And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?

27. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29. And he answered, No.

30. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?

31. And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

Okay. Does that need clarifying or does it need explaining away the plainess because it contradicts Church doctrine?
Dec 7, 2:53 AM

I have attended Sacrament Meeting with my wife. I just can’t justify it any more. I have tried to support my wife since 1996 when I threw up my hands. It hasn’t been easy. Oddly, there are three Temple Recommend Holders in my home (daughter’s family lives in House upstairs) and I have been the most active! I attended more sacrament meetings, held more callings and done more service projects! Isn’t that a Hoot! I just can’t be a part of supporting perversion by law. I told the leadership I was done and resigned everything. I played the flute because I said I would. Besides, Book of Mormon says to use wine, not water.
Dec 7, 2:58 AM
Justin Koh

Oops, maybe I have used the wrong word, I should not have used the word clarify, my bad. But when I am trying to say is that the Church expounds further and adds in new truths and teachings that has been revealed to them.
Dec 7, 3:01 AM
Justin Koh

We can't use wine, because of the Word of Wisdom, if I'm not wrong
Dec 7, 3:02 AM
Justin Koh

So I take it as you don't attend sacrament meetings anymore from now on. So, how would you partake the sacrament? It is important to partake of it as mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
Dec 7, 3:03 AM

“partake of the Sacrament’ I think we would have to get into “authority” as explained in the book of Mormon. Perhaps another day.
Dec 7, 3:07 AM

“Church expounds further and adds in new truths and teachings “ : Here is where my blue orange/alien parable applies:
Dec 7, 3:08 AM

I have an alien pen pal on Mars. She (don’t tell my wife) is very interested in our foods. One time, I told her we have fruits called Oranges. For a laugh, I told her they were blue! seemed funny at the time. She believed me (no humor on Mars)! I dropped the whole subject. Then, unexpectedly, she found a way to earth to study our foods. I quickly wrote back that Oranges are not blue. Oranges are, unsurprisingly, orange. I added that you have to peel them to eat them in case she got here and found one.
Dec 7, 3:12 AM

So, here we have two things to consider. When I added “you have to peel them”, I was sharing further light and knowledge. But when I told her oranges were orange, I was contradicting previous revelation.
Dec 7, 3:14 AM

I can accept revelation that adds to the body of knowledge already written. If it isn’t in the Book of Mormon or Bible, the revelation may be true, maybe not, but whatever it is not essential to my salvation. If the revelation contradicts what has already been revealed, I know it is false.

2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
Dec 7, 3:18 AM

Yikes! I better get to sleep (almost 12.30a here) if I am not going to sleep thru my morning devotionals! I will look what you wrote tomorrow. Sorry.
Dec 7, 3:23 AM

But before I lip into my jammies, let me apply my blue oranges analogy:
Dec 7, 3:32 AM

Amulek says and angel told him there was one God and no more. New revelation to Justin is that God has a long red beard. I check the Book of Mormon and Bible. Nothing about God’s beard color. so it might be true, might not be true. Either way, it is not important to my salvation. Joseph tells me that God has a God who is His Father. I check the Book of Mormon and Bible. I see that there is one God and no more. Joseph tells me there are at least two that he mentioned. I can conclude that that is a contradiction of something previously revealed. I must reject Joseph’s notion.
Dec 7, 3:37 AM
Justin Koh

Sorry for keeping you up so late into the night! I apologize for that.
Dec 7, 6:06 AM
Justin Koh

I totally agree with your blue orange/alien parable
Dec 7, 6:06 AM
Justin Koh

You mentioned that the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God has a God who is His Father contradicts the scriptures because it says there is only one God. I have to say this is a classic question asked by people who oppose the Church, mainly Protestants and Evangelicals, and I have answered this question countless times, and I will do it again right now.

Often times in the Bible, when it says there is only one God and there is no other gods, the other gods refer to idols, as it is the context of the chapter, even the book itself. Even if it were not referring to idols, whether in the Bible or the Book of Mormon, it is said that there is only one God because we should not really care if there is other gods or not, the God that we only need to focus on is Heavenly Father. Thus, it says that there is only one God in the scriptures, which essentially means there is only one God you should focus on or worship.

The word God, can also be interpreted as the Godhead, which includes Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

Therefore, I believe what Joseph Smith has taught is to add new truths and teachings to expound further, and not to contradict. If you want to quote scripture verses that says there is only one God, feel free to do so. I will explain to you why it is written it that manner, to the best of my ability.
Dec 7, 6:21 AM

Great time reading this morning, even though the bags under my eyes were down to the pages!
Dec 7, 10:41 AM

This is a grand example of twisting (wresting) scripture to fit doctrine.

The plain and precious part restored by the Book of Mormon:

27. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.

28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

9. And he answered, No.

Your square peg in a round hole:

27. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God you should focus on or worship.

28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God you should focus on or worship?

29. And he answered, No. There is only one God you should focus on or worship.

This is a very dangerous practice.

Alma 13:20 Now I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.

Alma 41:1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing.
Dec 7, 10:53 AM

This has been the cause of apostasy thru the ages. Why should I quote any more verses when this one is so plain that one simply cannot err?
Dec 7, 10:54 AM

People do this all the time. That’s why Catholics think Christ built His Church on Peter and Jehovah’s witnesses forbid blood transfusions and Seventh Day Adventists worship on Saturday and Amish wear strange clothes and ride carriages. They have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?
Dec 7, 11:34 AM

Here is a doctrine that is not only unscriptural, but, in all frankness, a blasphemous abomination:

Dallin Oaks: In the Final Judgment each of us will be judged according to our deeds and the desires of our hearts. Before that, we will need to suffer for our unrepented sins. The scriptures are clear on that.

Divine Love in the Father’s Plan

He has us suffering for our own sins until we are purged (purgatory?) enough to enter into glory!

It reflects a total misunderstanding of the Atonement, which is frightful because, as Joseph Smith Says, "all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” If one starts out on building on a wrong foundation, the building will fall and great will be the fall thereof.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?

The fact is that it isn't suffering that atones for sins. It is the suffering of a sinless being, a lamb without blemish. The sacrifice cannot be made by fallen man so full of blemishes, especially after a mortal life full of sin and rebellion.

Alma 34

9. For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, ALL ARE HARDENED; YEA, ALL ARE FALLEN AND ARE LOST [unfit for a sacrifice], and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10. For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

11. Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

12. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

13. Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice...

The Book of Mormon and Bible shout "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world"
Dec 7, 11:37 AM

This is exactly what the prophet Malachi in chapter 1 calls pollution!

6. A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?7. Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8. And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

9. And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10. Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
Dec 7, 11:45 AM
Justin Koh

I am by no means twisting or wresting scriptures to fit doctrines, I am merely just explaining why scriptures say there is only one God.
Dec 7, 7:10 PM
Justin Koh

I will reiterate my explanation again if it wasn't that clear. The reason why scriptures say there is only one God is so that people can focus and rely solely on their God, not other Gods that has no part in creating the world and the heavens. It is said merely to not cause any distractions whatsoever among the people, that they would not probe into it.

If it is made known unto man that there are many gods in the scriptures, do you think the people would really pray to Heavenly Father, their God? Would they not be enticed to worship other Gods, Gods that have plays no roles in the salvation of man or the creation of the earth and the heavens?

I believe everything is mentioned and not mentioned in scriptures for very good reasons. Those that are not mentioned will be revealed in due time.

I would agree with you that this knowledge that there are many Gods have no impact whatsoever to our salvation and exaltation, that's why you don't have to agree with this teaching to be a member of the Church.
Dec 7, 7:20 PM
Justin Koh

You have quoted Dallin H. Oaks because of something weird he said in the April 2022 General Conference on Divine Love of the Father's Plan.

Okay, I have to say I disagree with what he has said, and I suspect it might be a case of scriptural misinterpretation. If you look at the verses he quoted for that part that you have quoted him saying, it refers to primarily D&C 138:57–59 along with other verses quoted from D&C and the Book of Mormon.

Why do I say it might be a case of scriptural misinterpretation? Look at D&C 138:57–59. It teaches that when those who are in the spirit prison repent, they will be redeemed, “through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God". And once all of this happens, they will have have to be punished for their sins and be washed clean.

Dallin H. Oaks say all of us have to go through this purgatory of sorts. But according to scriptures, this is not true. Only those who are in the spirit prison have to go through that, not those in the spirit paradise, as seen in D&C 138:57–59.
Dec 7, 8:51 PM
Justin Koh

I recall Elder D. Todd Christofferson, saying this:

not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church

So, in this case, what Dallin H. Oaks has said, as you have quoted, falls under this category, that it is merely an opinion or perspective, not actually doctrine.
Dec 7, 11:24 PM

SAYS YOU: " I am merely just explaining why scriptures say there is only one God."

ME: Most likely scriptures say there is only one God because there is only one God.

2 Nephi 31:3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

2 Nephi 33:6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth;

Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

SAYS YOU: "that they would not probe into it."

ME: Wise words. Let's not probe beyond the mark.

SAYS YOU: "do you think the people would really pray to Heavenly Father, their God?"

ME: If that is what they were told to do and they were faithful. That is why you do not pry to Mary or the saints, right?

SAYS YOU: "Okay, I have to say I disagree with what he has said, and I suspect it might be a case of scriptural misinterpretation"

ME: A personal, though well-considered, opinion. What a curse! When true prophets are giving opinions, they tell you.

Alma 40:20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that...

See 1 Corinthians 7:25 Now about virgins, I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

SAYS YOU: "other verses quoted from D&C and the Book of Mormon."

ME: I rebutted with verses from the Book of Mormon. He cited none from it for there are none. He resorts to others just like him. Here is an important key to wisdom; when one has to leave the Book of Mormon and Bible to back up doctrine, the red light should go on. We are to use two Books and they are listed.

See Ezekiel 37 (stick of Judah and Stick of Joseph). There are no books beyond those that can be consulted.

15 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

16 "And you, son of man, take a single stickb and write on it: 'Belonging to Judah and to the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick and write on it: 'Belonging to Joseph-the stick of Ephraim-and to all the house of Israel associated with him.'

17 Then join them together into one stick, so that they become one in your hand.

18 When your people ask you, 'Won't you explain to us what you mean by these?'

19 you are to tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: 'I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will put them together with the stick of Judah. I will make them into a single stick, and they will become one in My hand.'

SAYS YOU: "It teaches that when those who are in the spirit prison repent, they will be redeemed"

ME: The Book of Mormon Says you cannot repent after death, as discussed somewhere above. (Alma 34)

SAYS YOU: "they will have have to be punished for their sins and be washed clean"

ME: I showed that they have nothing to offer for they are not sinless nor are they Lambs without blemish and that only through the Atonement by the sinless Lamb of God can was them clean. This is not only basic Christian Doctrine, but it is the whole key!

Alma 5:20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?

21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

SAYS YOU: "Dallin H. Oaks say all of us have to go through this purgatory of sorts. But according to scriptures, this is not true"

ME: That is not only not true, it is abominable. Jesus died for our sins and He is the way, the only way, to become clean. Purgatory is a Catholic Doctrine. Don't you see the warning in 2 Nephi 28?

7. Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

You preach we can live a life of sin yet all will be well with you in the end? According to you and the Church, won't we receive glory in a Kingdom of God and be happy beyond comprehension even if we rebel against God and choose evil? You teach that “we die; and it shall be well with us” This is a clear warning. But the next addresses this being punished for our sins after death!

8. And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines,

I can not imagine how this can be put more clear and to the point under discussion! The Book of Mormon calls these concepts false and vain and foolish doctrines.

SAYS YOU: "they will be redeemed, 'through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God'"

ME: Galatians 2

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

SAYS YOU: "what Dallin H. Oaks has said, as you have quoted, falls under this category, that it is merely an opinion or perspective, not actually doctrine."

ME: Ah, well. It appears that it would be better not to believe anything these guys say because there is no other way to know the word of God from mere opinion without using the Book of Mormon and Bible. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Section 138 is also liable to be a mere opinion. In fact since there is no such doctrine found in the Bible or Book of Mormon we can safely conclude that it is not even well-considered opinion. I have studied that horrendous talk line by line and word by word. I think his innovations indicate a change in doctrine and the direction he wants to take the church.
Dec 8, 1:06 AM

The slaying of Laban was a tiny stumbling block to you in the distant past. Did you read what I wrote on Laban?
Dec 8, 1:07 AM
Justin Koh

I have read your article on Laban, and I find it to be extremely insightful and I agree with what you have said in there, that Laban is a type of Christ.
Dec 8, 3:58 AM
Justin Koh

YOU SAID: “Most likely scriptures say there is only one God because there is only one God.”

MY RESPONSE: I beg to differ, my friend, and I have explained in my previous comments why I don't think that's the case. And that is where we differ. I would tend to read a little deeper into the texts itself, especially through comparing them with new revelations, and to draw possible conclusions that I feel is spiritually logical and reasonable. I do not like to just read the surface level, I like to delve deeper into scriptures, by looking at the context of why certain verses is said in a certain way.

YOU SAID: “If that is what they were told to do and they were faithful. That is why you do not pry to Mary or the saints, right?”

MY RESPONSE: Yes, I do not pray to Mary, although I used to ask her to intercede for me back when I was still a Catholic. Anyways, I agree with what you have said that they will pray to Heavenly Father if they are faithful and do what they are told, but what happens if revelations regarding the existence of many Gods were preached unto those people? What if some of the people chose not to be faithful or do as they are told and begin worshipping these Gods that have no part in their own salvation or in the creation of the earth and the heavens? If the things that we know now are preached unto people of that time, they will be distracted and it will bring forth even more divisions, which would result in even more chaos, simply because those people where capable of creating their own gods in the form of idols, what more will they do if they are aware of the existence of many Gods? The result would be devastating!
Dec 8, 4:13 AM
Justin Koh

YOU SAID: “A personal, though well-considered, opinion. What a curse! When true prophets are giving opinions, they tell you.”

MY RESPONSE: It is easy to tell if it's an opinion or not, we can always search the scriptures and know for ourselves. Furthermore, I have a testimony that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are true prophets, seers, and revelators of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have known many people, especially my Bishop, who can give wonderful testimonies about it. Although I have yet to receive a powerful spiritual witness of all of them, mainly because I have not met them face to face, but I have met one of the apostles and I could feel the presence of the Holy Ghost so strongly when he gave talks during the two days of Stake Conference. It was during those two days, that the Spirit did testify so strongly that he is truly called to be an apostle of the Lord. During the October 2022 General Conference, I experience the same powerful testimony of the Holy Ghost when he spoke. This apostle that I have such a strong testimony of is Elder Ronald A. Rasband. I recommend that you check out his talk in the recent general conference. I will leave the link down below:

This Day

YOU SAID: '’The Book of Mormon Says you cannot repent after death, as discussed somewhere above. (Alma 34)”

MY RESPONSE: There is no repentance after death for the most wicked, in the sense that they will remain in their wickedness even in the Spirit Prison, they will not change or repent. I think I have expounded quite clearly on this when we were discussing about this weeks ago, if you remember.
Dec 8, 6:13 AM
Justin Koh

Anyways, I have been quite busy today, I will respond to your statements tomorrow. In the meantime, please feel free to respond to the comments I have already made.
Dec 8, 6:21 AM
Justin Koh

YOU SAID: “I showed that they have nothing to offer for they are not sinless nor are they Lambs without blemish and that only through the Atonement by the sinless Lamb of God can was them clean. This is not only basic Christian Doctrine, but it is the whole key!”

MY RESPONSE: I have showed you why they have sinned in our discussions when I replied to your answer for this question: “For Latter-day Saints, what is the value of studying and reading the Book of Mormon on a daily basis?”.
Thu 7:12 PM
Justin Koh

YOU SAID: “You preach we can live a life of sin yet all will be well with you in the end? According to you and the Church, won't we receive glory in a Kingdom of God and be happy beyond comprehension even if we rebel against God and choose evil? You teach that “we die; and it shall be well with us” This is a clear warning. But the next addresses this being punished for our sins after death!

I can not imagine how this can be put more clear and to the point under discussion! The Book of Mormon calls these concepts false and vain and foolish doctrines.”

MY RESPONSE: I have, in no way, preached that we can live a life of sin and all will be well at the end. Please read 2 Nephi 28:8 carefully. I have reiterated many times that the Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom. Those who live a life of sin and remain unrepentant will never be in the Kingdom of God. They will be cast out from the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. They will dwell in the Telestial Kingdom.

We can see this is D&C 76:102 - 106:

Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

In verses 111 and 112, it continues:

For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

It is clear from the verses I have just quoted that those who live the life of sin will never be in the Kingdom of God. Therefore, I totally agree with what 2 Nephi 28:8 says. And I agree if anyone who believes otherwise, they believe in vain and foolish doctrines.
Thu 8:44 PM
Justin Koh

YOU SAID: “Ah, well. It appears that it would be better not to believe anything these guys say because there is no other way to know the word of God from mere opinion without using the Book of Mormon and Bible. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Section 138 is also liable to be a mere opinion. In fact since there is no such doctrine found in the Bible or Book of Mormon we can safely conclude that it is not even well-considered opinion. I have studied that horrendous talk line by line and word by word. I think his innovations indicate a change in doctrine and the direction he wants to take the church.

MY RESPONSE: That is where we differ, my friend, once again. I believe Section 138 to be scripture, as it aligns with the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Although such teachings are not explicitly mentioned in those scriptures, it does not contradict but aligns with what has already been taught. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that Section 138 is indeed revelation from God given to Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith.

Also, Dallin H. Oaks is known for making weird statements in his talk. Dale G. Renlund is another one I've heard. Furthermore, Elder Oaks is next in line to be the President of the Church, which makes it scary, as I do not know what kind of weird doctrine would be preached by him. Luckily, the scriptures are available for us to search and compare whether the things that he said or is going to say is doctrine or just merely an opinion.
Thu 9:07 PM
Justin Koh

Okay, here is my full response to your statements. Feel free to comment on them!
Thu 9:07 PM

After I leave Walmart, I stop in the bar. I arrive home and my wife asks me if I went to the bar. I say “no” because I went to the bar AND Walmart. Is that a lie?

I have a beautiful rose from my garden that I want all to admire. Someone asks if there are other roses in my garden. I tell them no because I want them to admire this one rose. Is that a lie?

If the angel tells Amulek that there is only one God and Amulek passes it along to Zeezrom, are Amulek and the Angel lying if they know there are other Gods but they want everyone to concentrate on one of them? Is God lying because He inspired Mormon to include this story is even though He knows there are other Gods beside Himself?

Do I misunderstand what you were telling me?

If the Book of Mormon says there is one God, I have to go along with the Book of Mormon, though I understand the conundrum this causes.

You keep adding words that are not there.

Book of Mormon

28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29. And he answered, No.

LDSaints

28. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?

29. And he answered, Well, since I want you to worship one in particular, I have to say, in a certain sense, No. But really there are bunches.

Book of Mormon

Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

LDSaints, who have the ability to read a little deeper into the text itself to see things not written

Alma 34:34 If you are the wickedest of people, ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess the bodies of the very, very most wicked people at the time that they go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess the body of the evilest people in that eternal world. If you aren't among the wickedest of people, yes, you can repent. You will be beaten with a few stripes for your unrepentant sins, thereby purging yourself and in the end you will be saved in a kingdom of glory where you will be happy beyond comprehension once some future relative of yours fumbles through your old birth and death records, gets past the frustration of the Church's genealogy database and travels hundreds of miles to the Temple (if they pass the interview).

Book of Mormon

Moroni 10:26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

LDSaints

Moroni 10:26 And wo unto them who are the very worse of the wicked and do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they are the only ones that cannot be saved in the kingdom of God (the only God we mention), that is, the Celestial Kingdom, but they can be saved in a lower kingdom in heaven (not the Kingdom OF, but a kingdom IN heaven) which is not the kingdom of the God we mention, but still a kingdom of glory; At best, you will be cast out into a place of weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth and have to live with Jesus for eternity, and even though Jesus is God, this will not be a Kingdom of the God we mention. This is your punishment. At worse you will be with the Holy Ghost for eternity as your punishment and, even though the Holy Ghost is God, this also is not a Kingdom of God. I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not, although some might define lying differently from me. If all that is confusing, don't fret. God saves all the works of His hands and wherever you end up, you will be happy beyond comprehension. Wickedness is, it turns out, happiness beyond comprehension.

Book of Mormon

Moroni 5:1 The manner of administering the wine--Behold, they took the cup, and said:

LDSaints

Moroni 5:1 The manner of administering the wine (which wasn't really wine but most likely grape juice) only if water in your location is tainted. That won't be a problem in 1500 years--Behold, they took the cup containing some kind of liquid, and said:
Fri 2:08 AM

I drove my wife to the temple (couple hundred miles round trip), am very tired and probably shouldn’t be responding. I will continue tomorrow.
Fri 2:10 AM
Justin Koh

Wow, that's nice! Do sleep, it must be so tiring!
Fri 4:03 AM
Justin Koh

Just curious, did you ever tried to discuss the things that you have discussed with me, with your wife? If so, what was her reaction?
Fri 5:53 AM
Justin Koh

Anyways, I understand what you are trying to say, and you have been extremely convincing. To be honest, I am stumped, because you made great points here.

However, even though you made pretty good points, I have a question in relation to the points you made. The question is: How do you reconcile those points you have made with D&C 76 and 132, the Word of Wisdom, and President Lorenzo Snow's statement that “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”? They are all revelations from God, some in the form of visions, are you telling me that they are all false? That they were simply made up?
Fri 6:05 AM
Justin Koh

I have a hard time believing that these revelations aren't true, that is if you are implying that.
Fri 6:06 AM

Let's look at Secion 138 together. numbers in brackets will be from that section.

It is believed that the spirit world is divided into paradise and spirit prison (see bubble chart). Who is in Paradise? The Saints.

[12. ...the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13. And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God....suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.

14. ....firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15. ...they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing....

22. ...among the righteous there was peace;

23. And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24. Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.]

Who was in spirit prison?

[20. ....the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh....

21. the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets...

29. ....the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth....

32. ....those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets...

35. ...the unrighteous...

37. ...their rebellion and transgression..... ]

But, behold, Peter says Jesus went to the spirit prison! To those who were sometimes disobedient! this contradicts 138:

[20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

29. ....I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;]

Peter didn't say He went to paradise, as 138 would teach. He went to the spirit prison where 138 says he didn't go!

It should also be noted that all the dead, whether in paradise or prison, died before Jesus' resurrection. There is nothing about future dead rebels.

One gets the impression that Smith was befuddled by the time constraints.

[25. I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry...

27. But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28. And I wondered...how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.]

When we step out of earthly life, we exit the realm of time and into eternity. Time is measured only unto man. He "wondered...how it was possible". I am sure if someone told him that soon the whole world, saint and sinner, would be able to hear AND SEE General Conference and the words of the living Oracle AT ONCE and AS THE WORDS WERE LEAVING HIS MOUTH he would wonder how that was possible!!! Now we know and get this we take it for granted as nothing spectacular!!!

We also know that we can be shown all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

And we know that God can "upload" whatever He wants into our hearts and minds without powerpoint presentations or dramatic renditions:

Hebrews 10:16 ....saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Furthermore, 28. And I wondered.....how it was possible for him to....perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

Joseph F should have know that all the "necessary labor" was already done on the cross:

[35. And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that REDEMPTION HAD BEEN WROUGHT through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross].

We could go on, but this is just a short view on Section 138 and why I think it is a hot mess.
Fri 10:52 AM

With my dear wife I also stay in the overlap.
Fri 10:52 AM

But let's not leave it there.

Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

It appears that I plucked up, broke down, destroyed and afflicted. but now I want to build up and plant.

Who do I suspect, putting pieces together, Jesus went to teach and fill in the details of the Plan of Redemption?

Mosiah 15

21. ....those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, EVEN UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST--for so shall he be called.

22. ....all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD....

23. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.

24. ....these are they that have DIED BEFORE CHRIST CAME, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.

And what commandments did they keep? The law of Moses and the Light of Christ.

Mosiah 13:27-8 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

Mosiah 16:14 Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come--

Abinadi did not say that salvation does not come by keeping the law of Moses. The Law of Moses is what those people had. Abinadi said, "salvation doth not come by the law ALONE".

So, paradise was full of people who were sometimes disobedient (or they would have been translated) while the Ark was being prepared. That is, if Jesus is the Ark (type: Jesus took the beating of the wave and storm while those "in Christ" were spared the beating [judgement] and were kept safe and dry) wherein souls were safe), then the time that the Ark was being prepared is the time before Christ came.

Are there any examples given of this kind of people?

Luke 1

5. THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances [of the Law of Moses] of the Lord blameless.

Zacharias and Elisabeth kept the commandments “while the Ark was being prepared”. When Jesus went to them, He filled in the details using the Law of Moses, which they kept blamelessly, and explained the Plan of Redemption.

Luke 24

27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Please read the following carefully, as you normally do. Notice that the spirits of the wicked are captive but the spirits of the righteous are not described as captive. The bodies of the wciked and righteous are captive in the grave, but only the wicked have spirits that are captive!

2 Nephi 9

11. And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

12. And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and HELL MUST DELIVER UP ITS CAPTIVE SPIRITS, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

13. O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect...

These are His Children, His Seed.

Mosiah 15

10. ....And who shall be his seed?

11. Behold I say unto you, that WHOSOEVER HAS HEARD THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS, YEA, ALL THE HOLY PROPHETS WHO HAVE PROPHESIED CONCERNING THE COMING OF THE LORD [Before Christ]--I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that THE LORD WOULD REDEEM HIS PEOPLE, and have LOOKED FORWARD TO THAT DAY for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

12. For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?

18. .... O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings [in paradise?], that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people;

Finally (I have many Mountain man tasks so I gotta get to them)

Moroni 8

22. ....all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing--

23. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25. And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

26. And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
Fri 12:01 PM

2. And again I say, hearken unto my voice, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved.
3. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him--
4. Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.
Fri 12:02 PM

Doctrine and Covenants 45 ^^^
Fri 12:02 PM

Need a break! We got dumped on by snow last night.
Fri 1:21 PM

How do you reconcile those points you have made with:

D&C 76

"Members freaked when they read section 76: "Because this section, called "The Vision," departed significantly from the mainstream Christian view of one heaven and one hell, it was not easily received by some at first. Brigham Young said, "My traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was so directly contrary and opposed to my former education, I said, wait a little; I did not reject it, but I could not understand it" (Deseret News, Extra, September 14, 1852, p. 24). Entire branches of the Church had the same problem. John Murdock and Orson Pratt, serving missions in Ohio at the time, struggled to help Church members there accept these new outlooks on eternity".

Doctrine and Covenants 76

I am not one that accepts it. "the mainstream Christian view of one heaven and one hell" is the same view as the Book of Mormon.

D&C 132

This is brisk slap in the face of Jacob who spent much time condemning Polygamy.

The Word Of Wisdom

Many folks had concepts of the "Word of Wisdom".

Kellogg, John Harvey (1852–1943)

....the development of Kellogg’s philosophy of health.

An article by Kellogg published in 1875, written just before he earned his second medical degree, outlined a philosophy of health that guided his work as a physician and health educator his entire career:

1. Obedience to the laws of life and health is a moral obligation.

2. Mental, moral, and physical health can be maintained only by the observance of mental, moral, and physical laws.

3. A healthy body is essential to perfect soundness of mind.

4. Physical health promotes morality.

5. Morality, likewise, promotes physical health.

6. In the treatment of disease the simplest and safest remedies are the proper

curative agents.

7. Nature is the most efficient physician.

To achieve these objectives, he advocated abstinence from tea, coffee, chocolate, and alcoholic liquors; avoidance of tobacco; a simple, meatless diet; and proper dress.45 Throughout his life Kellogg promoted “natural” remedies, but his later medical school training taught him that many forms of standard medical practice were also useful to health improvement.

The Proven Health Benefits of the Adventist Lifestyle

How did Adventists become so focused on health and well-being? It began early on in their history when they began to recognize how personal health can be a powerful expression of faith. It also upholds what the Bible says about how we should regard our bodies and minds.

“I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect” (Romans 12:1, 2, ESV).

“Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20, ESV).

This is why many Adventists follow a plant-based diet, abstain from alcohol, tobacco, and mind-altering drugs, and encourage regular exercise and sufficient rest.

As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be

Lets not go there if we don't have to. This, to me, is a horrible doctrine.

Are You Telling Me That They Are All False? That They Were Simply Made Up?

As Joseph himself said when one "revelation" (obtaining Canadian copyright for Book of Mormon) crashed and burned, some revelations are of God, some of men and some of devils". that's a good reason to regard revelation as, at best, personal, though well considered, opinions until the scriptures can be consulted:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Fri 1:23 PM

Here is my theory.

The devil comes to Eve and says "Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil". Like to almost everyone on earth, that sounded great! Why? God can create life. God has great lifestyle cause He lives His principles. God can create things out of materials. He knows good from evil. He is absolutely free. He has dominion over the universe!

Let us try our hand at being gods! We are convinced God saves all the works of His hands. What can go wrong? After all, the devil said "ye shall not surely die". (He sought also the misery of all mankind and he knew what would lead to misery, as we can see).

So, Heavenly Father comes along. "So, you want to be gods? Well, not so fast. I am going to put you on probation to see how you do. I will allow you to create life. This life you create will be called children (they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth). I will give you materials that you can organize, soil, seeds, water, plants and animals and "all things are given them which are expedient unto man" (2 Nephi 2:27). You will be out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth and work with other stuff to organize. I will write in your heart the eternal law (And the law is given unto men). I will give you freedom (men are free according to the flesh) and I will let you know good from evil (ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil).

"How will we know good from evil", asks the pair.

"I will entice you to do good otherwise "man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed". You will have the light of Christ. You will have the Holy Ghost. You will have relationships, intelligence, opportunities, time, energy, ability to observe and reason and resources to use to help you as you practice becoming gods. You will have the voice of the Good Shepherd calling and guiding you. The Good Shepherd, through the Holy Ghost, will even write down everything you will need to know."

"This is great! Let's get started!"

"Okay. 'Ye are gods'. I give you dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth".

Almost immediately they turned the earth into a field of blood. They delivered everything to the devil (Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.)! The world became filled with fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners. Blood and tears flowed like mighty rivers. Everyone became carnal, sensual and devilsh rather than becoming gods.

Now they were in a fix that they couldn't get themselves out of. They were spiritually dead and 100% helpless to help themselves. They saw they were heading toward temporal death.

Alma 34:9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

But how to access this atonement?

The first thing is to confess that we are not gods, rather that HE, yes, HE is God. We must all do it sooner or later.

Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God. [HE is God]

1 Nephi 11:6 ....the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, THE MOST HIGH [none higher] God; for he is God [HE is God].

Later. More tasks....The good news comes next! And it is astonishing!
Fri 4:36 PM
Justin Koh

I agree with your theory so far
Fri 10:43 PM
Justin Koh

You quoted Moroni 8:22, but what about the law of conscience. FOR people who knew not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they have the light of Christ with them, in the form of their conscience. If they go against their conscience, don't they have need to repent?
Fri 10:45 PM
Justin Koh

Aren't those people shortchanged, because they did not have a chance to receive the everlasting Gospel? Shouldn't they be given a chance to receive them in the Spirit world?
Fri 10:47 PM

I am delighted that your recognize that this is merely my theory.

Every morning, as part of my prayers, I ask Heavenly Father to help me "put the pieces together". I look at what things I know and I try to assemble them into something that is accurate, sensable and practical. I am always open to change the conncetion of any part with the other parts. I have no motive to defend my beliefs or die on any hill. But along the way I do my best to live my conclusions as best I can.

I also pray for the Saints of the Church of the Lamb whatever church they belong to. They, also, are putting together the pieces and will come up with the best theory they can. Sometimes they adhere to a physical church simply because the church seems to have put the pieces together for them. Bless them as long as they are sincere.

This is you, perhaps. You belong to the LDSaints Church because, after prayerful consideration, you are convinced that they put the pieces together in a way that makes sense to you.

In the end, we will all be found horribly wrong. We try to put together the pieces with our spirit which is dependent on a fallen brain. I think the questions will be What conclusions did you settle on? How much effort did you expend trying to figure out the puzzle? Did you live according to your conclusions?

SAYS YOU: "Aren't those people shortchanged, because they did not have a chance to receive the everlasting Gospel?"

ME: They would be shortchanged if we were all placed here willy-nilly. But

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God wants all to be saved. Therefore He put us where and when we would have the best chance. that is why you are where you are and at this time. We would all like to be cowboys. But Father knew that wouldn't work for us. We might like to have been with the pioneers crossing over the plains. Nope. We would not have thrived. And the pioneers would probably have crashed and burned living among all our technology and comforts.

He put that tribesman in the remote jungle in the eighteenth century because that is the guy's best chance of making it to heaven. Sure, his only understanding of the Eternal Law is that there is a God and he expects us to live right. The law to him, is don't eat your neighbors and provide material needs to your offspring and protect them. If he does that, all will be well. Where little is given, little will be required. Maybe don’t eat those two guys in white shirts and ties that paddle up to your hut.

He dies and goes to paradise where he will be given any missing details and insight into the gospel, otherwise his knee can't bow nor his mouth confess that God is God. Sure, he may not have had the Bible and the stories of Jesus his whole life, but how many on earth have the Bible only to their condemnation?
Sat 1:14 AM

So, taking up the theory where we left of. We say that God has given all of us the chance to take our best shot at being gods. (What more could I have done in my vineyard?) He gave us all that was expedient. We make a mess f everything. Instead of being godly, we resemble more satan and we become devilish. We are moving along line #3 on the Plan of Redemption. We are spiritually dead.
Sat 1:19 AM

But something happens along the downward line #3. The voice of the Good Shepherd calls and calls again to rethink our course (Repent). This can and will come to us in the manner best suited to get us to turn. We may see Christian movie and the voice cuts us to the core. We may work with a sterling example of Christianity and the voice is a longing to have her happiness and order in life. We may pick up a religious book or pamphlet and find ourselves weeping and feeling warm inside. We my be called when we see a friend cut off in their youth or feel a supernatural love when we donate to a childrens’ hospital. We may hear it the first time we look through a microscope, telescope, go to the zoo or anything that bears testimony about a creative God. A sunset, a storm, surviving an impossible situation. The words of a prophet. The words and example of our mother recalled 20 years.
Sat 1:27 AM

When Christians say they were saved by grace, this is what some of them mean.

Ephesians 2:1 AND you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You were dead, spiritually dead. A dead corpse is pretty much helpless to do anything on his own except lay there and be cold. "Quickened", of course, means made alive. After all we can do on our own, we are still dead. It takes a special help from outside to quicken us.

2 Nephi 25:23 …..we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Book of Mormon Examples

Alma 5 - the People of Alma,sr

6. And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have.... ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell?

7. Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word;

37. O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice!

38. Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

39. And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.

40. For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

41. Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

Enos

3. Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.

4. And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

5. And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

6. And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

7. And I said: Lord, how is it done?

8. And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

Joseph Smith, 1838 version of First Vision

11. I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

12. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart.

Joseph Smith, 1832 version of First Vision

For I looked upon the sun, the glorious luminary of the earth, and also the moon, rolling in their majesty through the heavens, and also the stars shining in their courses, and the earth also upon which I stood, and the beasts of the ?eld, and the fowls of heaven, and the ?sh of the waters, and also man walking forth upon the face of the earth in majesty and in the strength of beauty, whose power and intelligence in governing the things which are so exceedingly great and marvelous, even in the likeness of him who created them. And when I considered upon these things, my heart exclaimed, “Well hath the wise man said, ‘It is a fool that saith in his heart, there is no God.’” My heart exclaimed, “All, all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotent and omnipresent power, a being who maketh laws and decreeth and bindeth all things in their bounds, who ?lleth eternity, who was and is and will be from all eternity to eternity.” And I considered all these things and that that being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth.

I can multiply instances of the Voice of the Good Shepherd. These are very interesting. I am convinced that anytime that the scriptures say that the people were astonished at the teaching so Jesus, they weren't saying that the people thought the teachings sere surprising. I think astonished means that they were being spoken to by the Voice of the Good Shepherd.

Zeezrom

Alma 11:46 Now, when Amulek had finished these words the people began again to be astonished, and also Zeezrom began to tremble.

Alma 14:6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; ....and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

Thessalonians

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance...

2 Nephi 33:1 ....when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

Luke 24:32 ....Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

The voice of the Good Shepherd calling and then quickening us from the "dead" is how we are saved by grace, not of works. You see, saved by grace is not such a scary doctrine. It is only by grace that we have been saved, awakened from the dead.

With this view (I confess, it is mine) an interesting site to visit is the link below. someone collected spiritual awakenings of people in all kinds of different churches. As you read these testimonies, look for the Voice of the Good Shepherd:

Testimonies of Other Faiths

I have to end tonight. If you have my Plan of Redemption chart, we have been discussion #6.
Sat 2:23 AM

If you are not bored to tears, now that we covered line #3, helps #4, and the Visitation #6 we can read some clear incidents illustrated by #7.
Sat 2:26 AM
Justin Koh

I'm never bored when it comes to our discussions!
Sat 4:02 AM
Justin Koh

I agree with your “saved by grace" doctrine. However works are also necessary, grace and works complements each other, and are inseparable, for they work hand in hand.

Through observations, the end result of the “saved by grace" doctrine that is emphasized heavily by Protestants and Evangelicals leads most of its congregants to believe that since I'm saved by grace, it's okay to lie a little, to steal a little, to be rude a little, because at the end I will saved because of grace.

That is the notion that Latter-day Saints and Catholics are combating. Notice how both beliefs emphasizes that yes, we are ultimately saved by grace, but works are important. We have to do our part!

I really love how C. S. Lewis compares grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

Here's another quote from Elder Dallin H. Oaks:

“After all our obedience and good works, we cannot be saved from the effect of our sins without the grace extended by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”

Sat 5:58 AM
Justin Koh

Also, I disagree with your theory that members outside of the Church can enter into the Kingdom of God. Although, through the discussions we have had, you have managed to convince me that there are doctrines that the Church promotes that are inconsistent with scriptures, but the Church is still the Lord's Church, the Only, One True Church (Church of the Lamb of God), this does nothing whatsoever in changing this fact.

If believers in Christ outside of the Church truly hearkened unto the voice of the Good Shepherd, they would have been led to His Church by Him, just like how me and you were led to the Church. If they would truly be like little children and go where God wants them to go, I will agree that they will be received into the Kingdom of God. Anyways, who am I to decide who gets in and who does not, God will decide, not me, but this is just my opinion.
Sat 6:05 AM
Justin Koh

I have also contemplated on the things you have said with regards to Moroni 8:22. And after much deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that those who knew not the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ are still subjected unto the law. Why?

This is because where little is given, little is required. Even if they do not have the Gospel with them and they knew not the commandments of God, they are still subjected to a law, and that law is the law of the conscience.

Under Conscience in Gospel Topics, it says:

“All people are born with the capacity to distinguish between right and wrong. This ability, called conscience, is a manifestation of the Light of Christ (see Moroni 7:15–19). A person’s conscience is a defense against situations that are spiritually harmful.”

Once a person goes against their conscience, whether they knew or knew not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, has sinned, for a individual's conscience tells him right from wrong. If he decides to wilfully act on the contrary of what his conscience tells him, he has sinned for he is subjected to the law.

I will use the Bible to prove that those who knew not the Gospel are still subjected to law. Look at Romans 2:14–16, which says:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This proves that if one does not have the law, conscience is the law.

Thus, if they have sinned, they must repent. Since they knew not the Gospel, the only avenue available for them to repent is in the spirit prison, where the Gospel will be preached to them, and then they will taught repentance and baptism. This then proves that temple work is necessary.

Through this perspective, I am able to make a logical and reasonable conclusion that is aligned with the Church AND the scriptures.
Sun 5:05 AM
Justin Koh

Now, I will expound further on what Moroni 8:22 meant by “they that are without the law".

Those that are not subjected to the law are people that are in either one of these three categories:

    Little children below 8 years old
    Those that are born mentally incapacitated
    Those that become mentally incapacitated during their lifetime on Earth.

I will explain why the third category is included. I believe that those who are mentally incapacitated during their lifetime on Earth is only accountable, or rather, subjected to the law when they are well. However, once they became mentally incapacitated, whatever he or she does beyond this point, is not subjected under the law.
Sun 5:14 AM

so, Let’s see my diagram.
Sun 7:54 PM
Sun 7:55 PM

A. represents Everybody who have ever lived on earth

B. Those who heard of Baptism

C. Those who heard of and rejected baptism

D. Children before 8 and mentally incapacitated

E. Those who became mentally incapacitated.
Sun 7:58 PM

I divided up E because they could become incapacitated before or never hearing of baptism. they could also have become incapacitated after hearing of baptism and even after hearing and rejecting baptism
Sun 8:14 PM

I maintain only those in C. are accountable to be baptized ever, as you know. Everyone outside of C. are without the law.
Sun 8:16 PM

I think that one can go astray when one concludes that the only thing required is baptism. There are weightier matters such as feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and those in prison for the Lord’s sake. None of those activities can be accomplished in the “spirit prison” for there will be none hungry nor thirsty, etc. to be ministered to and therefore one cannot repent of neglecting those things. (Matthew 25)
Sun 8:21 PM

Furthermore, only those in B. who endure to the end will be blessed.
Sun 8:23 PM

You seem to believe those in the GREEN minus the PINK need baptism.
Sun 8:25 PM
Justin Koh

Read 3 Nephi 11:33–34
Sun 8:36 PM
Justin Koh

Christ has made it clear in his doctrine that baptism is a requirement
Sun 8:36 PM
Justin Koh

Verse 40 includes a warning as to those who adds or take away what Christ has already declared as His doctrine
Sun 8:37 PM
Justin Koh

Those in B, who have heard of baptism, will not necessarily be blessed if they endure to the end. It depends on what they are going to do about it after hearing about baptism
Sun 8:38 PM
Justin Koh

Just look at Romans 2:13
Sun 8:39 PM

SAYS YOU: " grace and works complements each other, and are inseparable, for they work hand in hand."

ME: I think you meant Faith and Works. those two go hand in hand. As Wesley said, Faith "...is not barely a speculative, rational thing, a cold, lifeless assent, a train of ideas in the head; but also a disposition of the heart".

I add the following from Wesley because you have misrepresented protestants:

Thus it is, that in the children of God, repentance and faith exactly answer each other. By repentance we feel the sin remaining in our hearts, and cleaving to our words and actions: by faith, we receive the power of God in Christ, purifying our hearts, and cleansing our hands. By repentance, we are still sensible that we deserve punishment for all our tempers, and words, and actions: by faith, we are conscious that our Advocate with the Father is continually pleading for us, and thereby continually turning aside all condemnation and punishment from us. By repentance we have an abiding conviction that there is no help in us: by faith we receive not only mercy, "but grace to help in" every "time of need. Repentance disclaims the very possibility of any other help; faith accepts all the help we stand in need of, from him that hath all power in heaven and earth.Repentance says, "Without him I can do nothing:" Faith says, "I can do all things through Christ strengthening me." Through him I can not only overcome, but expel, all the enemies of my soul.Through him I can "love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength;" yea, and "walk in holiness and righteousness before him all the days of my life."

For all this is....more than a dead faith.The true, living, Christian faith, which whosoever hath, is born of God, is not only an assent, an act of the understanding; but A DISPOSITION, which God hath wrought in his heart; "a sure trust and confidence in God, that, through the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favor of God." This implies, that a man first renounce himself; that, in order to be "found in Christ," to be accepted through him, he totally rejects all "confidence in the flesh;" that, "having nothing to pay," having no trust in his own works or righteousness of any kind, he comes to God as a lost, miserable, self-destroyed, self-condemned, undone, helpless sinner; as one whose mouth is utterly stopped, and who is altogether "guilty before God." Such a sense of sin, (commonly called despair, by those who speak evil of the things they know not,) together with a full conviction, such as no words can express, that of Christ only cometh our salvation, and an earnest desire of that salvation, must precede a living faith, a trust in Him, who "for us paid our ransom by his death, and fulfilled the law of his life." This faith then, whereby we are born of God, is "not only a belief of all the articles of our faith, but also a true confidence of the mercy of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"The right and true Christian faith is..., "not only to believe that Holy Scripture and the Articles of our Faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence to be saved from everlasting damnation by Christ. It is a sure trust and confidence which a man hath in God, that, by the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favor of God; WHEREOF DOTH FOLLOW A LOVING HEART, TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS."

Faith in general is a divine, supernatural "_elegchos_," "evidence" or "conviction,"of things not seen," not discoverable by our bodily senses, as being either past, future, or spiritual.Justifying faith implies, not only a divine evidence or conviction that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself;" but A SURE TRUST AND CONFIDENCE THAT CHRIST DIED FOR "MY" SINS, THAT HE LOVED "ME," AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR "ME." And at what time soever a sinner thus believes, be it in early childhood, in the strength of his years, or when he is old and hoary-haired, God justifieth that ungodly one: God, for the sake of his Son, pardoneth and absolveth him, who had in him, till then, no good thing.Repentance, indeed, God had given him before; but that repentance was neither more nor less than a deep sense of the want of all good, and the presence of all evil.And whatever good he hath, or doeth, from that hour when he first believes in God through Christ, faith does not "find," but "bring." This is the fruit of faith. FIRST THE TREE IS GOOD, AND THEN THE FRUIT IS GOOD ALSO.

Only beware thou do not deceive thy own soul with regard to the nature of this Faith. It is not, as some have fondly conceived, a bare assent to the truth of the Bible, of the articles of our creed, or of all that is contained in the Old and New Testament. The devils believe this, as well as I or thou! And yet they are devils still. But it is, over and above this, a sure trust in the mercy of God, through Christ Jesus.It

is a confidence in a pardoning God. It is a divine evidence or conviction that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their" former "trespasses;" and, in particular, that the Son of God hath loved me, and given himself for me; and that I, even I, am now reconciled to God by the blood of the cross.

"All things are possible to him that" thus "believeth."The eyes of his understanding being enlightened," he sees what is his calling; even to glorify God, who hath bought him with so high a price, in his body and in his spirit, which now are God's by redemption, as well as by creation.He feels what is "the exceeding greatness of this power," who, as he raise up Christ from the dead, so is able to-quicken us, dead in sin," by his Spirit which dwelleth in us."This is the victory which overcometh the world, even our faith;" that faith, which is not only an unshaken assent to all that God hath revealed in Scripture, -- and in particular to those important truths, "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners;"He bare our sins in his own body on the tree;"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world;"-- but likewise the revelation of Christ in our hearts; a divine evidence or conviction of his love, his free, unmerited love to me a sinner; a sure confidence in his pardoning mercy, wrought in us by the Holy Ghost; a confidence, whereby every true believer is enabled to bear witness, "I know that my Redeemer liveth," that I have an "Advocate with the Father," and that "Jesus Christ the righteous" is my Lord, and "the propitiation for my sins," -- I know he hath "loved me, and given himself for me," -- He hath reconciled me, even me, to God; and I "have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins."

Or, as the Book of Mormon states (as usual, right to the point) Helaman 14:13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits.
Sun 9:02 PM
Justin Koh

I have not misrepresentated Protestants and Evangelicals, simply because it is my mere observation. I'm not saying all are like that, but most are
Sun 9:25 PM
Justin Koh

Trust me, I've talked to many such people, some of their words and actions does not match up
Sun 9:26 PM
Justin Koh

I'm not talking about faith and works, but GRACE and works. C. S. Lewis said that himself, as he compared grace and works. Dallin H. Oaks mentioned it as well. I have quoted them in my previous comment
Sun 9:29 PM

I see the flaw in my diagram. B., should imply that they are responsible to be baptized if they have heard about it.
Sun 9:38 PM

As a dedicated Elders Quorum President, I met with“many such people, some of their words and actions does not match up” among the Latter-day Saints. That does not make the doctrine of the LDSaints false.
Sun 9:41 PM

We are saved by Grace. Full stop. It is by Grace that we have faith. It is by Grace that we have power to do good works. The scissors analogy breaks down because it does not include faith.
Sun 9:44 PM
Justin Koh

Okay, let me put it this way. We are ultimately saved my grace, but once we are not serious in our faith, and we dwindle in unbelief, that grace will be taken away.
Sun 9:51 PM

It is only by grace that we see we need to repent and do good. It is only by grace that we have divine evidence (faith) that God is real. It is by the Grace of God that we were awakened from our “deep sleep”. It is by Grace that we were lead to the Book of Mormon. There is nothing in and of ourselves that we could have done to deserve all these manifestations of Grace.

Alma 22:14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself;

Our faith is weak even if we have some. It doesn’t even amount to a mustard seed! Our works are pitiful, compared to filthy rags! Only the wise plead the merits of Christ to be saved. We depend on His grace. You want to know the words of Grace?

Doctrine and Covenants 45

3. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him--

4. Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

5. Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

Is he pointing to our abundant faith? Is he pointing out all the wonderful works we have done? Is he saying "look at this wonderful saint"? No. He is pleading with the Father to look at what He has done for them. If we did not have this “advocate” we would be exposed to the whole demands of justice. This is the Grace we get and we don’t deserve any of it! That is why it is grace, unmerited favor.

This is Grace.
Sun 9:56 PM
Justin Koh

Exactly
Sun 10:07 PM
Justin Koh

It is only through Christ that we are saved
Sun 10:08 PM

Baptism amounts to a public declaration before God, the Angels and man that we are committing ourselves to keep the commandments and take upon ourselves the name of Christ:

2 Nephi 31

6. And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being BAPTIZED BY WATER?

7. Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and WITNESSETH UNTO THE FATHER THAT HE WOULD BE OBEDIENT UNTO HIM IN KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS.

13. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, WITNESSING UNTO THE FATHER THAT YE ARE WILLING TO TAKE UPON YOU THE NAME OF CHRIST, BY BAPTISM--yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then

14....After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism...
Sun 10:27 PM

It freaks me out when converts insist on a private baptism. It is meant as a public declaration, a public witness.
Sun 10:28 PM

This taking the sacrament renews our baptismal covenant is goofy. Any time we follow thru on demonstrating that we are wiling to keep His commandments we are renewing that commitment. My wife took dinner to an impoverished neighbor who broke her ankle. that was as much renewing her baptismal covenant as taking the sacrament.
Sun 10:31 PM

Says you, “we are…serious in our faith”. Nephi covers this “with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent”
Sun 10:33 PM

This “seriousness” is what is key in having an effective baptism. Its not magic water. and what is the evidence that our baptism has been effective? To members of the church who had been baptized, Alma asks:

Alma 5:14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

and then he addresses faith and works:

15. Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you?

“Exercising faith” is nothing but doing good because we realize that we have been redeemed by grace..

Evidence always follows.
Sun 10:41 PM

to those who were baptized,

18. …..can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?
19. I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?
20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
Sun 10:43 PM

No matter how many there are that believe we are saved 100% by grace with no evidence following, the doctrine of “saved by grace” is still true. Unfortunately, because some of us see knuckleheads that sin and claim they are saved by grace, we fly to the other extreme and preach we are saved by works. LDSaints seem to fall into this trap.
Sun 10:47 PM

John Wesley in his Sermon on Salvation by Faith answers objections to the doctrine:

Objection: That to preach salvation or justification, by faith only, is to preach against holiness and good works.

Response: To which a short answer might be given: "It would be so, if we spake, as some do, of a faith which was separate from these; but we speak of a faith which is not so, but productive of all good works, and all holiness."

Objection: May not the speaking thus of the mercy of God, as saving or justifying freely by faith only, encourage men in sin?

Response: Indeed, it may and will: Many will "continue in sin that grace may abound:" But their blood is upon their own head. The goodness of God ought to lead them to repentance; and so it will those who are sincere of heart.

Objection: If a man cannot be saved by all that he can do, this will drive men to despair.

Response: True, to despair of being saved by their own works, their own merits, or righteousness.And so it ought; for none can trust in the merits of Christ, till he has utterly renounced his own.

Objection: This, it is said, is an uncomfortable doctrine.

Response: The devil spoke like himself, that is, without either truth or shame, when he dared to suggest to men that it is such. It is the only comfortable one, it is "very full of comfort," to all self-destroyed, self- condemned sinners.

Objection: When no more objections occur, then we are simply told that salvation by faith only ought not to be preached as the first doctrine, or, at least, not to be preached at all.

Response: But what saith the Holy Ghost? "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, even Jesus Christ." So then, that "whosoever believeth on him shall be saved," is, and must be, the foundation of all our preaching; that is, must be preached first.
Sun 11:04 PM

I recommend a careful study of that whole sermon which I mercilessly butchered for brevity. I put it here for you:

Salvation by Faith
Sun 11:10 PM

You should check out the article linked below “The Prophet Joseph Smith expressed his own attitude toward Methodism to a Methodist preacher named Peter Cartwright in Illinois. Cartwright recorded, “He believed that among all the Churches in the world the Methodists was the nearest right. But they had stopped short by not claiming the gift of tongues, of prophecy, and of miracles, and then quoted a batch of Scriptures to prove his position correct. . . . ‘Indeed,’ said Joe, ‘if the Methodists would only advance a step or two further, they would take the world. We Latter-day Saints are Methodists, as far as they have gone, only have advanced further.’”[69]
Sun 11:19 PM

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-9-no-3-2008/john-wesley-methodist-foundation-restoration
Sun 11:20 PM

Another excerpt:
Sun 11:27 PM

Similarities with Latter-day Saint Doctrine

That so many Methodists joined the Church is understandable due to so many fundamental doctrinal similarities. Wesley taught that man has fallen and that the “natural man” is totally against God and under the bondage of sin. Nevertheless, Christ’s grace is given to all people that they might choose to follow Him and be redeemed. This redemption comes through the individual’s faith in Christ and is an act of grace; however, the individual must choose to receive Christ’s grace through obedience. Through faith the individual receives an assurance that Christ had redeemed her or him. Wesley called this experience of being redeemed passing through “the gate.” Once the individual has entered through the gate, he or she gains an ascendancy over sin, but has not entirely overcome it. At this point the individual must continually strive to eradicate sin in the hope of achieving entire sanctification. At entire sanctification, the individual is filled with perfect love and has no more desire to sin. This state Wesley called holiness, or perfection. Yet the individual can still fall from holiness and therefore needs to be ever vigilant.[55]

The Book of Mormon is in accordance with Arminiansm’s essential elements of the fallen man who needs redemption (see Alma 34:9), free salvation for all who desire it (see 2Nephi 26:33), man’s free will to follow Christ and be redeemed (see 2Nephi 2:27; 10:23), and man’s free will to turn from Christ and lose salvation (see 2Nephi 31:14; D&C 20:32). In the words of John Brooke, Mormonism “explicitly rejected Calvinism.”[56]
Thus a local historian of the time recorded that a speech delivered by John Taylor, who had at one time been a Methodist, “seemed to differ but little from an old-fashioned Methodist sermon on the necessity of salvation.”[57]
One New Yorker observed, “Setting aside the near approach of the Millennium and the Book of Mormon, [the Latter-day Saints] resemble in faith and discipline the Methodists.”[58]
Sun 11:28 PM

An important note: Today’s Methodists have abandoned Wesley’s teachings. They are just a bunch of clowns.
Sun 11:30 PM

From the article: “Not long after John Wesley’s death, Methodism in both Great Britain and the United States began to undergo fundamental changes. These changes are perhaps best described by Job Smith, who was raised a Methodist but later joined the Church:

John Wesley, being inspired to do good among the English people, and to show the difference between empty formalities and real, religious activity, left off his surplice . . . and set out with earnest, honest desire and faith to preach the gospel as far as he understood it, for the reformation and salvation of those who would listen to him. . . .

Later on, and as wealth and popularity filled fashionable chapels and places of worship, formality and fashion deadened the preaching of his successors, and he being now gone, left nothing but his printed sermons to keep his fervor alive.[32]

”

Sun 11:37 PM
Justin Koh

Baptism, in my opinion, need not be public, for it can be private, it just depends on personal preferences and how one views baptism. For me, baptism is a private declaration to God that I am willing to follow and be led by Christ, and to be a member of His Church. Through baptism, I enter into a covenant with God to take upon myself the name of Jesus Christ, to keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end. That's why I requested for a private baptism, because as much as possible, I want my baptism to be between me and God.
Sun 11:58 PM

“Baptism, in my opinion, need not be public,” You are probably correct.
Mon 12:06 AM
Justin Koh

Partaking of the sacrament renews our baptismal covenant with God because of the simple fact they are related in one way or another. Just compare what was said during baptism and during sacrament, it is similar. Thus, it renews our covenant, because each time we partake of the sacrament we are called to remember Christ, to obey His commandments.
Mon 12:07 AM

“Through baptism, I enter into a covenant with God to take upon myself the name of Jesus Christ, to keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end”. I think one makes the covenant before baptism. Baptism is the witness. I have no strong beliefs on this, however. It just seems that the covenant is in effect if you slipped on the tile on the way to the fount, broke your head open and died.
Mon 12:08 AM
Justin Koh

Baptism is the very act of entering into a covenant with God
Mon 12:10 AM

Well, I am certain we both know where each other stands. Let’s spend our time frolicking in the “overlap”!
Mon 12:28 AM

I was intrigued one day when I read “and so forth”.

Alma 22:14
And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

I wanted to know the “and so forth”. Read Alma 22:12–6 and fill in the “and so forth”!
Mon 12:33 AM

I found 9 “and so forth”s.
Mon 12:44 AM

Or this:
Mon 1:15 AM

Mosiah 4

6. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17. Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just--

Why is this such an evil thing to say?

The Man Has Brought Upon Himself His Misery

This is not necessarily true to people who are in misery. they could be innocent victims of someone else's' sins. They could have been brought to a miserable state by natural disaster or sickness.

I Will Stay My Hand

We are never to stay our hand. "....be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust".

I Will....Not Give Unto Him Of My Food

Your food! We pray that Our Father in Heaven will give us our daily bread. When we do this and then consider that somehow it is our food, it is extremely grievous.

Mosiah 2:34 ....ye are eternally indebted to your heavenly Father, to render to him all that you have and are;

I Will....Not....Impart Unto Him Of My Substance

We are stewards of all that we have in our possession. Stewards own nothing but are obligated to use their stewardship in a manner that the true owner requires. Again, it is not our substance and the owner instructs to take His substance and share.

That He May Not Suffer

This is not someone begging to waste your subtance at a puppet show. This person is suffering. In fact, if you turn him out, you will "turn him out to perish". Anyone that can do that is not fit for the Kingdom of the Saviour. We are told of a good Samaritan who helped someone about to persih. We are commanded to do likewise.

For His Punishments are just

Again, one is assuming that he is being punished just because he is in bad straights. He might be learning lessons in huility. He might be gegging for your benefit, giving you the opportunity to be blessed.

Alma 8

18. Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah.

19. And as he entered the city he was an hungered, and he said to a man: Will ye give to an humble servant of God something to eat?

20. And the man said unto him: I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision: Thou shalt receive. Therefore, go with me into my house and I will impart unto thee of my food; and I know that thou wilt be a blessing unto me and my house.

Additionally, this is a veiled attack on the character of God who, it is believed, would punish someone with suffering and misery to the point of perishing. Is this God's justice?
Mon 1:20 AM

There was to be more, but the message launched and expectantly!
Mon 1:21 AM

There are wonders in the overlap!
Mon 1:22 AM
Justin Koh

This is so true!
Mon 1:30 AM
Justin Koh

Yes, I am certain that we both know where each of us stands.
Mon 1:31 AM
Justin Koh

But you have convinced me about one thing, and I will not change my stance unless proven otherwise, that the Telestial Kingdom is non-existent, well I don't believe it is, because it is simply inconsistent with scriptures.
Mon 1:33 AM

The Telestial Kingdom and 1 Corinthians 15

This chapter talks of the glory of the celestial and terrestrial. Missionaries always point to this set of verses to teach the three Glories. what should be noted is that only the Celestial and Terrestrial are mentioned...no Telestial. He is only talking of the body materiel and the differences between the "celestial body" and the "Terrestrial Body". Just two. And he employs illustrations.

Celestial is in the sky and Terrestrial is on the earth. The bodies on the earth are corruptible and the bodies in the heavens are incorruptible.

Here is the question Paul is answering;

35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Here is his answer;

42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

For visual aids, he uses the different materials that animals are made of.

39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Then he points to the skies;

40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

So, lets say that celestial means in the sky (of or relating to the sky or visible heavens) and terrestrial means on earth (of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants).

This is a common dichotomy in the Book of Mormon and Bible:

1 Nephi 1:14 And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!

1 Nephi 17:39 He ruleth high in the heavens, for it is his throne, and this earth is his footstool.

1 Nephi 20:13 Mine hand hath also laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens. I call unto them and they stand up together.

Here are some more from the Book of Mormon: 1 Nephi 1:14, 1 Nephi 17:39, 1 Nephi 20:13, 1 Nephi 21:13, 1 Nephi 22:9, 2 Nephi 2:14, 2 Nephi 8:6, 2 Nephi 8:13, 2 Nephi 8:16, 2 Nephi 23:13, 2 Nephi 25:12, 2 Nephi 29:7, Jacob 2:5, Jacob 7:14, Mosiah 3:8, Mosiah 4:2, Mosiah 4:9, Mosiah 5:15, Mosiah 12:36, Mosiah 13:12, Mosiah 13:19, Mosiah 15:4, Alma 1:15, Alma 5:50, Alma 7:9, Alma 11:39, Alma 18:28, Alma 18:29, Alma 22:10, Helaman 5:32, Helaman 8:24, Helaman 10:7, Helaman 14:12, Helaman 16:18, 3 Nephi 9:15, 3 Nephi 11:12, 3 Nephi 13:10, 3 Nephi 26:3, 3 Nephi 28:16, Mormon 9:11, Mormon 9:17, Ether 4:7, Ether 4:9, Ether 8:14, Ether 13:9

New Testament

Matthew 5:18, Matthew 6:10, Matthew 11:25, Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18, Matthew 18:19, Matthew 23:9, Matthew 24:30, Matthew 24:35, Matthew 28:2, Matthew 28:18, Mark 13:27, Mark 13:31, Luke 10:21, Luke 11:2, Luke 16:17, Luke 21:11, Luke 21:26, Luke 21:33, John 3:12, John 3:31, Acts 2:19, Acts 4:24, Acts 7:49, Acts 10:11, Acts 14:15, Acts 17:24, 1 Corinthians 8:5, 1 Corinthians 15:47, 1 Corinthians 15:48, 1 Corinthians 15:49, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:15, Philippians 2:10, Colossians 1:16, Colossians 1:20, Hebrews 1:10, Hebrews 12:25, Hebrews 12:26, James 5:12, James 5:18, 2 Peter 3:5, 2 Peter 3:7, 2 Peter 3:10, 2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 5:3, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:13, Revelation 8:13, Revelation 9:1, Revelation 10:5, Revelation 10:6, Revelation 10:8, Revelation 11:6, Revelation 11:13, Revelation 11:19, Revelation 12:4, Revelation 12:12, Revelation 13:13, Revelation 14:6, Revelation 14:7, Revelation 18:1, Revelation 20:9, Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1

Old Testament

Genesis 1:1, Genesis 1:15, Genesis 1:17, Genesis 1:20, Genesis 2:1, Genesis 2:4, Genesis 6:17, Genesis 7:19, Genesis 7:23, Genesis 11:4, Genesis 14:19, Genesis 14:22, Genesis 24:3, Genesis 26:4, Genesis 27:28, Genesis 27:39, Genesis 28:12, Exodus 20:4, Exodus 20:11, Exodus 31:17, Leviticus 26:19, Deuteronomy 3:24, Deuteronomy 4:26, Deuteronomy 4:32, Deuteronomy 4:36, Deuteronomy 4:39, Deuteronomy 5:8, Deuteronomy 10:14, Deuteronomy 11:21, Deuteronomy 28:23, Deuteronomy 30:19, Deuteronomy 31:28, Deuteronomy 32:1, Joshua 2:11, Judges 5:4, 1 Samuel 2:10, 2 Samuel 18:9, 2 Samuel 22:8, 1 Kings 8:23, 1 Kings 8:27, 1 Kings 8:43, 2 Kings 19:15, 1 Chronicles 16:31, 1 Chronicles 21:16, 1 Chronicles 29:11, 2 Chronicles 2:12, 2 Chronicles 6:14, 2 Chronicles 6:18, 2 Chronicles 6:33, 2 Chronicles 36:23, Ezra 1:2, Ezra 5:11, Nehemiah 9:6, Job 20:27, Job 28:24, Job 35:11, Job 37:3, Job 38:33, Psalms 8:1, Psalms 50:4, Psalms 57:5, Psalms 57:11, Psalms 68:8, Psalms 69:34, Psalms 73:9, Psalms 73:25, Psalms 76:8, Psalms 77:18, Psalms 79:2, Psalms 85:11, Psalms 89:11, Psalms 96:11, Psalms 102:19, Psalms 102:25, Psalms 103:11, Psalms 108:5, Psalms 113:6, Psalms 115:15, Psalms 115:16, Psalms 121:2, Psalms 124:8, Psalms 134:3, Psalms 135:6, Psalms 146:6, Psalms 147:8, Psalms 148:13, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 25:3, Proverbs 30:4, Ecclesiastes 5:2, Isaiah 1:2, Isaiah 13:13, Isaiah 37:16, Isaiah 40:12, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:23, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:8, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 49:13, Isaiah 51:6, Isaiah 51:13, Isaiah 51:16, Isaiah 55:9, Isaiah 55:10, Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:1, Isaiah 66:22, Jeremiah 4:23, Jeremiah 4:28, Jeremiah 7:33, Jeremiah 8:2, Jeremiah 10:11, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 10:13, Jeremiah 15:3, Jeremiah 16:4, Jeremiah 19:7, Jeremiah 23:24, Jeremiah 31:37, Jeremiah 32:17, Jeremiah 33:25, Jeremiah 34:20, Jeremiah 51:15, Jeremiah 51:16, Jeremiah 51:48, Lamentations 2:1, Ezekiel 8:3, Ezekiel 32:4, Ezekiel 38:20, Daniel 4:11, Daniel 4:15, Daniel 4:20, Daniel 4:22, Daniel 4:23, Daniel 4:35, Daniel 6:27, Hosea 2:18, Hosea 2:21, Joel 2:10, Joel 2:30, Joel 3:16, Amos 9:6, Habakkuk 3:3, Haggai 1:10, Haggai 2:6, Haggai 2:21, Zechariah 5:9, Zechariah 6:5, Zechariah 12:1

Doctrine and Covenants

Doctrine and Covenants 1:8, Doctrine and Covenants 1:13, Doctrine and Covenants 1:17, Doctrine and Covenants 1:38, Doctrine and Covenants 14:9, Doctrine and Covenants 20:17, Doctrine and Covenants 27:13, Doctrine and Covenants 29:11, Doctrine and Covenants 29:14, Doctrine and Covenants 29:23, Doctrine and Covenants 29:24, Doctrine and Covenants 38:11, Doctrine and Covenants 43:18, Doctrine and Covenants 43:23, Doctrine and Covenants 45:1, Doctrine and Covenants 45:22, Doctrine and Covenants 45:40, Doctrine and Covenants 45:48, Doctrine and Covenants 49:6, Doctrine and Covenants 49:23, Doctrine and Covenants 50:27, Doctrine and Covenants 56:11, Doctrine and Covenants 60:4, Doctrine and Covenants 65:5, Doctrine and Covenants 65:6, Doctrine and Covenants 67:2, Doctrine and Covenants 76:1, Doctrine and Covenants 76:63, Doctrine and Covenants 77:8, Doctrine and Covenants 78:5, Doctrine and Covenants 78:6, Doctrine and Covenants 84:118, Doctrine and Covenants 87:6, Doctrine and Covenants 88:43, Doctrine and Covenants 88:79, Doctrine and Covenants 88:92, Doctrine and Covenants 88:104, Doctrine and Covenants 89:14, Doctrine and Covenants 93:17, Doctrine and Covenants 101:24, Doctrine and Covenants 101:34, Doctrine and Covenants 104:14, Doctrine and Covenants 109:74, Doctrine and Covenants 110:11, Doctrine and Covenants 117:6, Doctrine and Covenants 121:4, Doctrine and Covenants 124:93, Doctrine and Covenants 127:7, Doctrine and Covenants 128:7, Doctrine and Covenants 128:8, Doctrine and Covenants 128:9, Doctrine and Covenants 128:10, Doctrine and Covenants 128:13, Doctrine and Covenants 128:14, Doctrine and Covenants 128:19, Doctrine and Covenants 132:46, Doctrine and Covenants 132:48, Doctrine and Covenants 133:36, Doctrine and Covenants 133:39

Pearl of Great Price

Moses 1:36, Moses 1:38, Moses 2:1, Moses 2:15, Moses 2:17, Moses 2:20, Moses 3:1, Moses 3:4, Moses 3:5, Moses 6:44, Moses 6:63, Moses 7:21, Moses 7:23, Moses 7:25, Moses 7:56, Moses 7:61, Moses 7:62, Abraham 2:7, Abraham 3:21, Abraham 4:1, Abraham 4:9, Abraham 4:15, Abraham 4:17, Abraham 4:20, Abraham 5:1, Abraham 5:3, Abraham 5:4, Joseph Smith--Matthew 1:1, Joseph Smith--Matthew 1:35, Joseph Smith--Matthew 1:36

The point is, Paul is employing the up there and down here to explain the resurrection. There are our bodies that are here on earth, but the bodies in heaven are different. How are they different?

42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Yes. The earthly bodies are corruptible and the resurrected body is incorruptible. In other words, the bodies that we bury are different from resurrected bodies. He is answering the question, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Here are the verses in the scriptures where there are corruptible bodies and incorruptible resurrected bodies:

Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 2:11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

2 Nephi 9:7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement--save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

2 Nephi 9:13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver up the body of the righteous; and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

Mosiah 16:10 Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil--

Alma 5:15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?

Alma 40:2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection--or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption--until after the coming of Christ.

Alma 41:4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--

Mormon 6:21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

Paul is talking about two body types. That is his answer to someone he calls a fool. He is not talking about kingdoms of Glory. As stated, he mentions no Telestial bodies.
Mon 2:34 AM

The Book of Mormon answers the fools question “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?”
Mon 2:35 AM

Now, with the above observations read, read 1 Corinthians 15 again:

35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Mon 2:40 AM

Summary: Alma 11:45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.
Mon 2:42 AM

Again, I invite you to read a link I gave you before on the dichotomy: One Hand, Other Hand
Mon 2:45 AM
Justin Koh

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, but things don't have to be so complicated. From my perspective, it is according to what Elder Bruce McConkie has taught:

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Bearing this in mind, and through this explanation or interpretation, 1 Corinthians 15:40 not only answers the question posed to Paul in verse 35, but also aligns with the teaching of the three degrees of glory. Thus, connecting the dots.
Mon 6:16 AM

Where Sidney Rigdon and Joseph got confused as they dictated Section 76 was in being caught up in Paul's visual aids. This is a problem that can be experienced by anyone. This is "connecting dots" in ways that should not be connected. In dot pictures for kids, there is a correct way to connect dots. I see it all the time. Let me illustrate how this can happen.

Resurrected as Animals

Jesus said that when He judges, he will separate the sheep from the goats. Getting caught up in the teaching technique, one can conclude that we will actually be resurrected as either sheep or as goats. Literal Sheep. Literal goats. You can surely see how one can come to peculiar and absurd conclusions. "But", says I, "I can prove that we will literally be sheep in heaven". So having this idea in my head, I go about picking and choosing through my sources. "Didn't David confirm this when he wrote 'THE LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters'? Certainly we will be sheep in the pastures that he is preparing for us when he said he was going to prepare a place for us? Why else would David say pastures are being prepared for us? Who are happy in pastures? Sheep!"

You can see that, once we take an illustration used to teach a main question and base a religion on the analogy we go far astray. All analogies break down when pushed to extremes. Lets be goofy and take Paul’s two analogies (animal flesh and planets) to the point of absurdity.

Different Flesh in the Resurrection

"[T]here is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds...So also is the resurrection of the dead".

So we see that there will be a variety of fleshy material in the resurrection. Some of us will have hairy beast flesh, some will have scales and some will have feathers. There! We now see how people will be distinguished depending on which of the kingdoms they are assigned. Feathers, obviously, are the top tier because we see that God has wings: Ruth 2:12 "The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust". Yet, both the good and the bad will have scales and will be fish-like: Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away".

I made this absurd (hyperbolic) on purpose to illustrate, as clear as I can, that one cannot derive doctrine from an illustration of a principle. I hope that the following exploration will be seen in this light.

Orbs in the Resurrection

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

I pause to point out that here he sticks to the two (2) distinctions, Celestial (items in the sky) and Terrestrial (items on earth).

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

So also is the resurrection of the dead.

So, it looks like we are going to be orbs in the resurrection. We will either be Stars (Suns….the sun is a star) or Moons. One or the other. We may be orbs in a distant place (that's why they look smaller than the star that is near), and the distant one will be a lot bigger and more glorious that the star we currently circle, but we will be orbs none the less. Those of us orbs that will be moons will not give off light. Our brightness is only apparent glowing, for our light is only reflecting light from our more heavenly orb brothers. But in the end, Paul was right! We are either 1) moon orbs or 2) star orbs. That is exactly what Jesus taught!

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

John taught that, even though we will be orbs, the glory of God will outshine us in heaven. We still will not be needed whether we are sun orbs or moon orbs:

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Doctrines from Illustrations

As the honest can see, many errors can be made by coming up with a doctrine and then going about to prove that doctrine by selecting verses that confirm our bias. The greatest danger is stringing together (connecting dots) mere illustrations, analogies that attempt to help finite minds to understand the infinite. I can prove, in this manner, that we are going to be plants, literal wheat or trees ("he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water" [Psalm 1:3])!
Mon 10:41 AM

“things don't have to be so complicated”!! Two destinations. Not very complicated.
Mon 10:42 AM

Verse 40 does not align with the teaching of the three degrees of glory.

40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Cited are but two bodies. There is no Telestial.

I think the scriptures teach there will be degrees of reward and degrees of punishment in each of the two destinations.

Alma 41

4. And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--

5. The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

There seems to be a happiness and an evil according to.... . But we still see there are two destinations "kingdom of God, or to ...the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other"

In the Kingdom of God, there will be those who have built with different materials. None the less, because they built on the foundation of Christ, they are in the Kingdom of God, but with different "degrees" of reward:

1 Corinthians 3

9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Apparently, as long as one builds on the foundation of Christ, even though they build with wood, hay, stubble, they are still saved. John Wesley, in his sermon "On The Resurrection of the Dead" (you may find his language astonishing)

From hence we may see how to account for the different degrees of glory in the heavenly world. For although all the children of God shall have glorious bodies, yet the glory of them all shall not be equal."As one star differeth from another star in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead." They shall all shine as stars; but those who, by a constant diligence in well-doing, have attained to a higher measure of purity than others, shall shine more bright than others.They shall appear as more glorious stars. It is certain that the most heavenly bodies will be given to the most heavenly souls; so that this is no little encouragement to us to make the greatest progress we possibly can in the knowledge and love of God, since the more we are weaned from the things of the earth now, the more glorious will our bodies be at the resurrection.

He also taught a variety of punishment in the other place: in his sermon "On Hell" he wrote:

We may observe a remarkable difference in the manner wherein our Lord speaks concerning the two parts of the future punishment.He says, "Where their worm dieth not," of the one; "where the fire is not quenched," of the other.This cannot be by chance.What then is the reason for this variation of the expression?

Does it not seem to be this? The fire will be the same, essentially the same, to all that are tormented therein; only perhaps more intense to some than others, according to their degree of guilt; but their worm will not, cannot be the same. It will be infinitely varied, according to the various kinds, as well as degrees, of wickedness. This variety will arise partly from the just judgment of God, "rewarding every man according to his works:" For we cannot doubt but this rule will take place no less in hell than in heaven. As in heaven "every man will receive his own reward," incommunicably his, according to his own labors, -- that is, the whole tenor of his tempers, thoughts, words, and actions; -- so undoubtedly, every man, in fact, will receive his own bad reward, according to his own bad labor. And this, likewise, will be incommunicably his own, even as his labor was. Variety of punishment will likewise arise from the very nature of the thing. As they that bring most holiness to heaven will find most happiness there; so, on the other hand, it is not only true, that the more wickedness a man brings to hell the more misery he will find there; but that this misery will be infinitely varied according to the various kinds of his wickedness.

Says J.C. Ryle, Practical Religion, in Chapter 21, Eternity! That there are degrees of misery as well as degrees of glory in the future state, that the condition of some who are lost will be far worse than that of others, all this is undeniable.

This makes sense. Whoremongers, those who spend their time with harlots, will not be found in the Kingdom of God. But the whoremonger that spends his time with "graphical harlots" (dirty pictures) on the internet (porn) will, probably, not be punished as severely as one who takes off work, drives downtown, spends his families money, picks up and spreads to one's wife diseases, encourages human trafficking and breaks the law. Both deserve death.

Romans 1:29. Being filled with....fornication....Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

But taking pleasure in viewing others fornicating may not be punished as severely as actual fornicators.

My opinion, but I operate on this assumption. I am not taking any chances, however.
Mon 11:38 AM

Summary: degrees or reward and punishment within the two destinations
Mon 11:38 AM
Justin Koh

I would say that is, again, where we differ. I believe Elder McConkie has explained it quite well as I have quoted. And I get what you are trying to say in your first comment. But I must say this, that people can come to their own conclusions, if people want to believe that they will become sheep, or orbs, or have different types of skin, they can do so, by all means. These people are those that take religious texts literally, by which their understanding is only on the surface level, and they fail to recognize that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are literature. We cannot take things too literally when interpreting scriptures or any literature as a matter of fact. We can have interpretations that differ, but it must be justified with scriptures. In this case, Section 76 is given unto Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in the form of a vision, which is from God, is true, for it is revelation. If this religion is made-up, he would not have died for the faith. He was not afraid to die. Who in the right frame of mind would die for something he knows deep down is made-up? It simply does not match up.
19h ago
Justin Koh

Furthermore, I disagree with what John Wesley had said, because it is simply inconsistent with scriptures.

He said, as you have quoted:

They shall all shine as stars; but those who, by a constant diligence in well-doing, have attained to a higher measure of purity than others, shall shine more bright than others.

This flatly contradicts 3 Nephi 27:19, which says:

And no unclean thing

can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest
save it be those who have washed

their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

When we are purified, we will be the same, spotless, there is no varying degrees of purity. If there were so, only those who are spotless can enter into the presence of God. Therefore, John Wesley, in this case, have supported the degrees of glory. This is simply because he believe in the concept of varying degrees of purity, which would explain why there are degrees of glory, since purity is measurable, they will be allocated to different degrees of glory based on their level of purity.
19h ago

Okay, you turned down my invitation to stay withing the "overlap". so, lets see what I have learned to be the difference between my approach to Gospel knowledge and yours.

Doctrine and Covenants 10

40. And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account--

45. Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel;

46. And, behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea, and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people.

47. And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers;

48. Yea, and this was their faith--that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.

49. Now, this is not all--their faith in their prayers was that this gospel should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess this land;

50. And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life;

52. And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people.

62. Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.

63. And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

We see that the true points of the Gospel of Jesus was had among the Nephites. In fact Mormon's abridgement, "this work", "does contain all those parts of my gospel". It was the prayer of the Nephite prophets "that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come". And, says the Lord "according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people".

And so it was.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people....

Consistently the Book of Mormon testifies that the "dead Nephite prophets" will be the ones speaking from the dust declaring the Gospel

2 Nephi 3:19-20 And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins. And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith. And they shall cry from the dust; yea, even repentance unto their brethren, even after many generations have gone by them. And it shall come to pass that their cry shall go, even according to the simpleness of their words.

2 Nephi 26:16 For those who shall be destroyed shall speak unto them out of the ground, and their speech shall be low out of the dust, and their voice shall be as one that hath a familiar spirit; for the Lord God will give unto him power, that he may whisper concerning them, even as it were out of the ground; and their speech shall whisper out of the dust.

2 Nephi 33:13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.

Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? I declare these things ....they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.

LDSaints know the story. The Bible went forth in plainness with all the plain and precious parts in tact. The Great and Abominable Church removed plain and precious parts. Everyone stumbled as a result. The Book of Mormon supplies those plain and precious parts.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:62-3 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me. And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

See 1 Nephi 13:32-6 Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles...For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; ....these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.

In light of the above, all doctrine that claims to be "my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation" must be tested by the two sticks that become one in our hand. Indeed, any "covenants" not found in the Bible and Book of Mormon must also be rejected.

2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write [Book of Mormon]; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write [Bible]; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins [Book of Mormon], and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible], shall grow together, unto the CONFOUNDING OF FALSE DOCTRINES and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF MY COVENANTS, saith the Lord.

There are two prophets that we will meet eventually.

Nephi - 2 Nephi 33

10. ....hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me;....

11. ....Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and

you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things....

13. ....I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.

14. And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.

15. For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

Moroni - Moroni 10

26. ....I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

27. And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for

ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

28. I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

29. And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.

Hence, my approach to Gospel knowledge is

Acts 17:11 ....noble....in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

LDSaint Approach

I think the LDSaint approach is best illustrated by this incident:

Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, reported: “I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made . . . with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. . . . A leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations ac-cording to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’ “When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the [living] oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and HE TOOK THE BIBLE, AND LAID IT DOWN; HE TOOK THE BOOK OF MORMON, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ Heber C. Kimball said he, ‘WHEN COMPARED WITH THE LIVING ORACLES THOSE BOOKS ARE NOTHING TO ME; THOSE BOOKS DO NOT CONVEY THE WORD OF GOD direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I WOULD RATHER HAVE THE LIVING ORACLES THAN ALL THE WRITING IN THE BOOKS.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’ ”

This has been cited several times on the Church website, so it is not some obscure snippet that I dug up. See:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The Course He Pursued and Condemnation

LDS Professor Grant Hardy said: Joseph Smith did not refer to passages from the book in his writings or sermons, nor was it cited very often by early church leaders. (Grant Hardy in Royal Skousen ed., The Book of Mormon, the Earliest Text, Yale University Press, 2009, p. xxii)

Jana Reiss wrote in the SkyLight Illuminations Series, The Book of Mormon – Selections Annotated and Explained: Early Mormons rarely quoted from the book in their speeches and writings; in one nineteenth-century LDS periodical, Elders’ Journal, the Bible was cited forty times more often than the Book of Mormon. Although early Mormons believed that the book was an authentically ancient record and that its miraculous appearance signaled that they were living in the “latter days,” they didn’t strongly emphasize its teachings. When the book was cited, it was usually to support the belief that the LDS Church was the restoration of Israel. It wasn’t until 1961 that a year-long course in the Book of Mormon became required for freshman students at Brigham Young University, and it was the 1980’s before the Book of Mormon was cited regularly in General Conference talks by church leaders. (2005, p. xiii)

Acknowledging the above, one understands this from Section 84:

54. And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--

55. Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--

President Benson said 1n 1986 that the Church was still under this condemnation even then! If the early Saints were rebuked for treating the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less condemnation if we do the same? The Lord Himself bears testimony that it is of eternal significance. Can a small number of us bring the whole Church under condemnation because we trifle with sacred things? What will we say at the Judgment when we stand before Him and meet His probing gaze if we are among those described as forgetting the new covenant?...Let us not remain under condemnation, with its scourge and judgment, by treating lightly this great and marvelous gift the Lord has given to us. Rather, let us win the promises associated with treasuring it up in our hearts".

The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion

1 Nephi 19:7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught [looking at you, Brother Brigham] and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words--they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

Now, one can go through the Book of Mormon which is so plain that no one can mistake in interpretation:

2 Nephi 25:7 But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my plainness; in the which I know that no man can err;

2 Nephi 25:20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err.

Alma 5:43 ....behold, I have spoken unto you plainly that ye cannot err, or have spoken according to the commandments of God.

Alma 13:23 And they are made known unto us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err;

But then the devil comes along with the oldest trick in the book:

Genesis 3:3-4 ....God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Conclusion

I think my course is the safest.
58m ago

premature launch! Errrrr!

My observation after all that is the difference is clear between us.

You read the Book of Mormon but depend on the Living Oracles for the final word.
55m ago

I listen to the Living Oracles and anyone else who loves the Lord and then I depend on the Book of Mormon to see if what they say is true.
54m ago

SAYS YOU: " if people want to believe that they will become sheep, or orbs, or have different types of skin, they can do so, by all means"

ME: I don't think anyone believes these things. I was just illustrating other wild interpretations that one can come up with by reading into these verses things beyond Paul's point, which was there are corruptible bodies before the resurrection and incorruptible bodies after. Any derivation beyond that is simply wresting scriptures.
48m ago

2 Peter 3

15. ....our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
48m ago

SAYS YOU: " I disagree with what John Wesley"

ME: Me too. One is completely pure or not. As you said "When we are purified, we will be the same, spotless, there is no varying degrees of purity. If there were so, only those who are spotless can enter into the presence of God". These are words from God through you!
44m ago

By the way, my heart was deeply delighted when you took what Wesley said and searched the Book of Mormon to see if those things were so! That is the very technique that I use!