Living Oracles
Are the living prophets and apostles more important to the Latter-day Saints than the prophets and apostles of the Bible and Book of Mormon?
Ray Farmer
Unfortunately, this is the case.
“Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’
Those Books mean everything to me. The above account sickens my heart.
I can stack all the Journal of Discourses (sorry, Brigham, your words have been thrown under the bus like you did to the scriptures) and all the conference issues declarations and messages of the First Presidency, put my hand on them and declare those publications mean nothing to me when compared to the scriptures.
The words of the Scriptures are as relevant today as they were when they flowed from the quill or scratched on the plates "for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." (2 Nephi 2:4)
Let me rephrase what Brigham taught “When compared with what we up here on the stand are telling you, the scriptures should mean nothing to you”.
“When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’” [In Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 22–23]
Someone who can put their hand on the books that contain the account of the life, sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus, the Sermon on the Mount, the parables of the Good Samaritan and Sower, Lehi’s dream, the letters of Alma to his sons, Abinadi’s experience and teachings and the record of the sweet encounter had with the children, and declare that they mean nothing to him compared to what he and his buddies are teaching, is certainly void of any spirit.
After many, many years in the Church, I finally realized what was the root cause of my grief with the Church. It is the above. Take your filthy hand off of those books!
"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." (Jeremiah 6:16).
"A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?" (Jeremiah 5:30-1)
Alan Brown
I fully appreciate the veracity of this answer. I concur that the Scriptures are critically important to our understanding of this Gospel. The one place that I differ is a matter of focus on what is the overall plan of redemption and how do we accomplish that as our Lord and Savior would have us do?
Zion can be built only on principles of righteousness.
As an example, I find much, much opinion here on Quora regarding the “truth” as an individual see it, relating to religion.
That there is so much variation is evident by even a cursory examination of material responses to various questions regarding Christianity.
Most certainly, as an LDS, I completely concur with the posited position of scriptural veracity and importance.
As well, I have no doubt that modern apostles and prophets are no different than those of long ago. Imperfect, fallible humans called to do a marvelous work and a wonder in these perilous final days of earth's mortal existence.
As such mere mortals are all that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit have to work with, I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT is TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT by the absolute head of this religion!
I aver with all my heart that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Eternal Plan of Salvation are PERFECT! That this is the ONLY DOCTRINE that makes available the very keys of the high priesthood of the holy order of God, aka the Melchizedek Priesthood, which contains all of the necessary keys of Authority to act as authorized by God to stand in on His behalf and carry out the eternal saving ordinances whereby ALL OF MANKIND SINCE ADAM AND EVE have the opportunity for learning about these redemptive plans and ordinances in life or in death and then using their God given right of free agency reject or accept this glad message and become Christians in word and deed.
That these teachings ALONE give Heavenly meaning to Where did we come from, What is our purpose on earth and Where do we go when we leave this earthly sojourn demonstrates the totality of consideration for us mortals by our Father in Heaven. That we are His spirit children and that we gain a physical body by being born and that if faithful, in death we (our spiritual and physical bodies united as one can be adopted into becoming true Children of God.
I testify that the completeness is so thorough planned by God that provisions have been made that we will be successful in carrying out the mandate of Elijah the Prophet, turning the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers, lest the entire earth be smitten with a curse. (why is this so important? Because of the Plan of Salvation, certain actions must be carried out while in the mortal body. Baptism by immersion as demonstrated by John the Baptist baptizing Jesus by total immersion to be the defining example of the importance of that action, the Covenants we make during life on earth, so many critical aspects of the entire plan for the immortal life and salvation of mankind must be carried out either while alive or by family members performing these ordinances by proxy for their dead relatives who then can either accept or reject those ordinances. That provisions are made for literally every other aspect or possible occurrence of one human being not being able to receive this Gospel in mortality is more of the comprehensive PERFECT plan of salvation prepared for us before the world. Cerebral Palsy people, infants who are called back shortly after being born, any possible condition that one can imagine has been provided for in this amazing plan.
So, all of that being stated with my absolute veracity, I ask one more question.
For those whom would tear down The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the ONLY, RESTORED church given the authority and the rights, privileges and the keys of the Very high priesthood of the holy order of God, the only vehicle created by Jesus Christ to ascertain the fulfillment of His entire, complete, perfect Plan of Salvation for every single one of us EVER on earth, FULFILLED BY, MINISTERED BY, ADMINISTERED BY & CARRIED OUT BY US, VERY IMPERFECT HUMANs, (to be sure; this was known, anticipated and provided for by God.),
And here is the final question I mentioned.
“What other gospel, church, spiritual knowledge direct from God via the Holy Ghost, scriptures, fallible prophets, apostles, church leaders, WHAT ELSE or WHO ELSE, or WHAT OTHER CHURCH would you have TO CARRY OUT the three fold mission of this plan of salvation, Viz.,
First, to teach the gospel to the world;
Second, to strengthen the membership of the Church wherever they may be;
Third, to move forward the work of salvation for the dead.
Is it truly conceivable that at this time during the last half of the time period established in opening the Seventh Seal, which is possibly 25 to 35 years from now, that the PLAN of Jesus Christ is to shuck the current Management of His Church and place His Ensign in the hands of a new regime, heretofore unformed or established, made up of imperfect humans, too?
I, believe not.
We must look at the big picture instead of focusing on the broken pieces.
The adversary would have us remain disjointed, disaffected, demoralized, even full of righteous indignation, anything to keep us from bonding together to accomplish the mission of the church.
Jesus Christ would have us be aware of our infallibility, caution not to let pride prevent the Holy Spirit from whispering the truth to us, and stay IN THE BOAT, GRAB A PADDLE AND ROW LIKE CRAZY!
I testify to any of you reading this that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect and true. I testify that if we put off pride and contention for the sake of peace and harmony and come together as CHRISTIANS we can exert a force for good, heretofore unseen on earth and aid our brother, Savior and Lord finish this work building up the Kingdom in these final days.
Zion can be built only on principles of righteousness.
Ray Farmer
Now, that was something! Thanks for your contribution, which I read with much attention.
"I will just spend a moment to address the question that you asked "What other gospel, church... would you have TO CARRY OUT the three fold mission of this plan of salvation..."
First of all, these three missions were self assigned and defined. Yet they have universal application, for the most part.
First, to teach the gospel to the world
This is being accomplished and has been accomplished by Christians everywhere thru the centuries, if we go by the definition that Jesus Himself laid out. One should carefully and without preconceived notions read what Jesus said after he said between "Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine" (3 Nephi 11:31) and
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them". (3 Nephi 11:39-40)
After studying that portion, you should ask yourself if you "declare more or less than this, and establish it for [His] doctrine" found taught herein.
One may further study the verses between "Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you..." (3 Ne. 27:13) and Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel (3 Ne. 27:21).
By Jesus' definition of His Gospel, many are carrying out this mission. Need proof? Ask anyone on the street to tell you anything about Jesus, who he was or what he taught. How many people saw "the Passion"? They are responsible for that knowledge. How many people have ever seen "the Last Supper" by di Vinci. Who has ever seen a religious pamphlet left on a bench or heard a Christmas Carol?
That is the Voice of the Good Shepherd calling people in the way they would most likely respond.
2 Nephi 9:21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice;
Alma 13:22 Yea, and the voice of the Lord, by the mouth of angels, doth declare it unto all nations; yea, doth declare it, that they may have glad tidings of great joy; yea, and he doth sound these glad tidings among all his people, yea, even to them that are scattered abroad upon the face of the earth; wherefore they have come unto us.
That’s why the Kingdom is compared to a mustard seed. It starts out very small, even a desire to believe, and when followed, grows into a big herb tree. God puts that desire in every heart (“exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe”). Placing the desire in everyone is a work of grace.
Alma 5:57 - "And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things" This is generally the first step toward justification and sanctification.
Now if you think spreading the word means teaching everyone your precepts that are unique to you, well that is another issue.
2 Ne. 28:3-6 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.....and he hath given his power unto men; (priesthood?) Behold, hearken ye unto my precept....
Second, to strengthen the membership of the Church wherever they may be;
Strengthening is done by the Holy Ghost working with the individual Ephesians 3:16 "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Once we are converted, we must strengthen each other. Luke 22:32 "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren".
Heb. 12:12 "Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees"
This is not the mission of the Church, any church. It is the responsibility of all followers of Christ as individuals. Individuals can band together for effectiveness, but it is a personal responsibility, not to be passed off to the collective. The Plan of Redemption makes individuals holy, not the collective. You receive no reward by being a nonparticipant in an organization that strengthens believers.
Third, to move forward the work of salvation for the dead.
This is, in Mormon's words (not mine) "gross error", a "solemn mockery before God" and "awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God". (Moroni 8) Read that whole chapter, keeping in mind that he is talking about little children and "they that are without the law" (Moroni 8:22)
It is clear, or as Alma put it "I have spoken unto you plainly that ye cannot err" (Alma 5:43), that THIS MORTAL LIFE is the day of probation. The day of this life does not end at the judgement. It is now, today! This life is the only opportunity.
“Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses**, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked”. (Alma 34:31-5)
That THIS is the day of probation day is repeated over and over and over again in the Book of Mormon (so many witnesses) one would have to reject the entire Book to believe that the day of probation extends to the judgement. Look up and mark these many witnesses:
**1 Nephi 10:21, 1 Nephi 15:30-3, 2 Nephi 2:21, 2 Nephi 2:30, 2 Nephi 9:27, 2 Nephi 9:38, 2 Nephi 33:9, Jacob 6:5-6, Mosiah 15:26, Alma 5:15-17, Alma 12:16, Alma 12:24, Alma 12:26, Alma 34:31-35, Alma 41:3, Alma 42:4, Alma 42:10, Alma 42:13, Alma 42:28, Helaman 13:38, Mormon 9:28, Moroni. 10:26, Matthew 25:10-2, John 8:24, John 9:4, 2 Corinthians 6:2, 2 Nephi 28:8-2, Alma 1:2-4, Luke 13:23-8, Luke 16:19-31
Well, there. I answered the question you answered yourself: "come together as CHRISTIANS we can exert a force for good".
Every Wind
Now there will be, has been and are many errors taught by churches as their precepts and doctrine. No denying it. But when “…he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers” in the various churches (as you put it ‘fallible prophets, apostles, church leaders’), he knew we would be as “children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine”. These church leaders are men with limited abilities and insight, after all, as you noted. That doesn’t mean they are not humble followers of Christ. In any church there “are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.” (2 Nephi 28:14), but the judgement won’t be a doctrinal test or a theological exam.