Paul Didn't Know
Ray Farmer
So, are you saying that Paul was the one that was deceived?
1 Corinthians 6
9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
You seem to be saying that all but Satan, his devils and others too few to be considered here will at last be saved in the Kingdom of God.
Michael Hickenbotham
Paul didn’t know everything. He believed the second coming was near (within his lifetime).
The telestial residents pay for their own sins because they received not the gospel of Christ, nor his atoning sacrifice. Sounds like hell to me.
Ray Farmer
SAYS YOU: "Paul didn’t know everything."
ME: Yikes!
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15. He must have known about the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms! What the heck!
Are you an Amalekite? While debating this very subject of universalism vs. Jesus' atonement and the necessity to accept it, the follower of the Order of Nehor, who believed, as you do, that "the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life", used your very argument! Take warning! The Amalekite starts in Alma 21:
6. .... We do believe that God will save all men.
Aaron was familiar with the words of Abinadi, who said:
"...the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins.... For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such”.
Continuing the the debate about universalism,
7. Now Aaron said unto him: Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?
8. And the man said unto him: We do not ....believe that thy fathers and also that our fathers did know concerning the things which they spake....
Are you astonished? The very argument, that the prophets didn't know what they were talking about, both you and the Amalekite use! And on this very subject!!
How did Nehor, the founder of Book of Mormon universalism, end his days?
Nehor "did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.
Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; ….they went forth preaching false doctrines....”
SAYS YOU: "The telestial residents pay for their own sins because they received not the gospel of Christ, nor his atoning sacrifice. Sounds like hell to me."
ME: Here is a point that nobody has explained to me. The scriptures teach plainly that we can't pay for our sins. We will be punished for them unless we allow Jesus to stand between us and justice. Jesus says we can't play the least senine while in the grasp of justice.
3 Nephi 12:26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.”
Dalin Oaks, teaching "the ultimate glorious destiny of all of God’s children" stated.
"The revealed doctrine of the restored Church of Jesus Christ teaches that all the children of God—with exceptions too limited to consider here—will finally wind up in a kingdom of glory. “In my Father’s house are many mansions,” Jesus taught. From modern revelation we know that those mansions are in three different kingdoms of glory. In the Final Judgment each of us will be judged according to our deeds and the desires of our hearts. Before that, we will need to suffer for our unrepented sins. The scriptures are clear on that. Then our righteous Judge will grant us residence in one of those kingdoms of glory".
This is exactly the teaching that the Book of Mormon warns you about:
2 Nephi 28
And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines...And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted....because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted...
So what is the response to these plain and precious and, I will add, surprisingly precise, teachings?
"our fathers did [not] know concerning the things which they spake"?
Fact is, "if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken" (1 Nephi 15:33-36).
SAYS YOU: "The telestial....Sounds like hell to me"
ME: So, the Telestial kingdom sounds like hell to you? But don't those fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers and extortioners that end up in the Telestial Kingdom experience glory that "surpasses all understanding?"
"our fathers did [not] know concerning the things which they spake".
You encouraged me to read the Doctrine and Covenants a while ago. Because I love and respect you, I took you up on it. Guess what I found!
Doctrine and Covenants 29
43. And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation--that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;
44. And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;
45. For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.
So you have a bunch of unrepentant, unredeemed sinners of every kind who loved "darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil" in the Kingdom of God! Joseph Smith seems to disagree.
Ha! I had so much enjoyment in the D&C that I read the Book of Moses!
Moses 7:1 AND it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them.
What is damnation?
Mosiah 16
10. Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil--
11. If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation--
So, you preach that those in the Kingdom of God are also delivered up to the devil!
You seem to think those who lived contrary to the spirit and the nature of God will be restored to happiness for eternity, glorified in the Kingdom of God.
Alma 41
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
I guess I cannot close this point any better that Alma did.
Alma 41:9. And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.
Its good to hear from you again. I was a bit worried, to be honest. If you can supply me with references that teach that the evil people can “pay” (rather than punished) for their sins and thus be “purged” from their filthiness before the judgement, I would be absolutely thrilled!