Do Latter-day Saints believe in heaven?
Ray Farmer
LDSaints have a very confused notion of heaven. Sometimes they mean living with God and becoming gods and other times heaven is so broad that the filthiest enter it and are glorified and happy beyond our comprehension.
Watch out for equivocation when hearing LDSaints use terms like Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God, Salvation, Saved, Hell and Eternal life. These terms change definition in order to make doctrine fit scriptures.
Q: Do LDSaints believe in heaven?
A1: What do you mean by Heaven?
A2: I have a concept of heaven. It’s not your concept. But I won’t tell you that. I’ll just say, yes. We believe in heaven. See? We believe just like you!
Alan Brown
· 9h
Yep, totally confused…
But, I personally everything this conference talk sets forth as everything I have learned in this screwed up, can't get out of its own way church.
At one time you understood the importance of being a peacemaker. Now you have set yourself up as the only person on the face of the earth that believes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, PERIOD!
You criticize what you over 16 million people believe to be true and think nothing of the fact that only you believe as you do!
You insult close personal friend’s beliefs that happen to be aligned with over 16 million others in this world, but don't find that odd or troubling or more specifically a probable testament regarding yourself!
You insult your very own active family members the very same way and dress it up as “not meant to be PERSONAL!” Oh, thy hypocrite! How can you clearly insult oh, excuse me, expose what your decades long journey down the rabbit hole of Alice in Wonderland has proven ONLY TO YOU to be the truth!!
You want to justify your journey by saying how many other “real Christians” think like you do. Is that the same Christians that can't agree with what the Bible says, such that there is over 43,000 different Christian churches? Yep, I would definitely believe what they have to say and use them to support my self imposed position!
I Believe In Christ… (Hymn Quoted)
Yep, those are some damning lyrics. BTW, this was written by another man you are quick to denigrate, Bruce R McConkie. Go figure.
Here's another false apostle, Neil L Andersen giving a General Conference talk on Peacemakers. Following Jesus: Being a Peacemaker
As for me and my household, we will serve the God of peace and love, not the adversary of contention and loathing.
You, of all people should know, it shouldn't take your path and your journey to find the “truth of God”. Yours is a path that few people would be able to follow and even still love God as you do!
Why oh why, can't you see this is not the way that Christ, even in His day, collected souls unto Him???
Blessed be the peacemakers…
Ray Farmer
SAYS YOU: "you have set yourself up as the only person on the face of the earth that believes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, PERIOD!"
ME: Of course you know that isn't true. As explained many times before to you, I believe many people everywhere believe in the doctrine of the Book of Mormon and Bible, whether or not they have any familiarity with the Book of Mormon. Many believe and preach that plain and precious doctrine. Unfortunately, the LDSaints aren't among them. They have gone with "Living Oracles" who contradict those two books. So, no, I don't believe that I am the only person on the face of the earth who believes those doctrines. PERIOD!!
SAYS YOU: "You criticize what you over 16 million people believe to be true and think nothing of the fact that only you believe as you do!"
ME: Again, the Saints of the Church of the Lamb as found in all congregations believe as I do.
Please note: "The Catholic churches form a denomination within Christianity and, with around 1.3 billion believers worldwide, are the largest Christian grouping". (Catholics - Worldwide distribution)
These 1.3 billion people pray to the Virgin Mother. Yet you would have me believe that that is incorrect despite the numbers that practice that! I guess large numbers can be wrong after all. It is odd that a scientist would revert to this fallacious reasoning! I guess you have your reasons.
SAYS YOU: "You insult close personal friend’s beliefs"
ME: Exploring those beliefs are not insulting them. Can one insult beliefs? Besides, if those closest to us are in error, should not our efforts on their behalf be more energetic?
I think friends’ would be more correct.
SAYS YOU: "You insult your very own active family members the very same way and dress it up as ‘not meant to be PERSONAL!’"
ME: Very curious. I am more active than any of my active family members, so what the heck! They would be more active if they followed my example. And I never dress up my teachings with "not meant to be personal". I make it a point to make it and indicate that the Lord's teaching IS personal. Very personal. I approach the gospel not as an academic, as you seem to believe. I am as personal as a physician seeking to heal.
SAYS YOU: "Oh, thy hypocrite!"
ME: Oh, boy. I am not the one waving the Book of Mormon in everyone's face, declaring, with tears, that it is true, testifying that it is true, that the Holy Ghost told you as much directly, at the same time rejecting its teachings.
SAYS YOU: "You want to justify your journey by saying how many other “real Christians” think like you do. Is that the same Christians that can't agree with what the Bible says, such that there is over 43,000 different Christian churches?"
ME: *sigh*. Many think like I do. In fact, the Church of Christ was on the earth when the Book of Mormon came out. The Book of Mormon was to help establish, or strengthen, them. You suffer from a mistaken view of what the Church is.
You have accused me of rejecting books beyond the Bible and Book of Mormon. Let me use the Doctrine and Covenants to teach you what is "the Church".
The Church - Who/What?
Doctrine and Covenants 10
64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
This seems to go along with the Book of Mormon teaching of what constitutes the Church:
3 Nephi 18:5 ....break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name.
3 Nephi 18:16 And as I have prayed among you even so shall ye pray in my church, among my people who do repent and are baptized in my name.
3 Nephi 21:22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
According to this section that you supposedly believe, the Book of Mormon was to come to this church that was already on earth. The Book of Mormon didn't come to "restore" the church, it came to establish, strengthen, the existent church.
Doctrine and Covenants 10
45. Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel; therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi, and send forth in this work.
46. And, behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea, and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people.
47. And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers;
48. Yea, and this was their faith--that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.
49. Now, this is not all--their faith in their prayers was that this gospel should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess this land;
50. And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life;
51. Yea, that it might be free unto all of whatsoever nation, kindred, tongue, or people they may be.
52. And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I BRING THIS PART OF MY GOSPEL TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF MY PEOPLE. BEHOLD, I DO NOT BRING IT TO DESTROY THAT WHICH THEY HAVE RECEIVED, BUT TO BUILD IT UP.
53. And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
54. NOW I DO NOT SAY THIS TO DESTROY MY CHURCH, BUT I SAY THIS TO BUILD UP MY CHURCH;
55. Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.
I know that was long and you probably wanted to get to the end of it, but these verses that you supposedly believe from the mouth of your Living Oracle, should suffice.
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Establish
This is the definition of "establish" as seem in the Webster's dictionary published at the time of this "revelation":
1. To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
4. To settle or fix; to confirm; as, to establish a person, society or corporation, in possessions or privileges.
5. To make firm; to confirm; to ratify what has been previously set or made.
6. To settle or fix what is wavering, doubtful or weak; to confirm.
7. To confirm; to fulfill; to make good.
Hymn: I Believe In Christ…
I am sure that if BRMc wasn’t an apostle, that hymn would not have been published in the Hymn Book. Those lyrics are a mess, jumping from Elizabethan English to modern English willy-nilly. This is a perfect example of what Paul Simon, in Emily's Song, wrote "With words that tear and strain to rhyme". Ah, well. BRMc and his work, Mormon Doctrine, is denigrated by the current LDSaint Church. It was printed by Bookcraft, not Deseret, you know! Just a collection of personal, thought well-considered, opinions.
AGAIN SAYS YOU: "You want to justify your journey by saying how many other “real Christians” think like you do. Is that the same Christians that can't agree with what the Bible says, such that there is over 43,000 different Christian churches?"
ME: In the Conference talk that you would have me read, Elder Neil L. Andersen quotes Reverend Amos C. Brown, a national civil rights leader and pastor of the Third Baptist Church in San Francisco, to bolster his conclusions!
This "pastor" is president of the San Fran branch of the NAACP. You should read info on him before employing him for any Christian purpose. Certainly before giving him and his ilk $10,000,000.
Amos Brown - Wikipedia
At least I quote and treasure historical Christian theologians that preach Book of Mormon and Bible doctrine. Gosh!
Look, you can be judged by those who speak well of you. I would not find it complimentary much to have this guy say anything nice about me. Jesus refused to let demon-possessed people testify of Him:
Mark 1
23. And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24. Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
Jesus pointed out:
Luke 6
22. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
26. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
2 Corinthians 6
14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Samuel the Lamanite and Peacemakers
Who are the "peacemakers" in the warnings of Samuel, Prophet of God?
Helaman 13 - Treatment of True Prophets
24. Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
25. And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.
26. Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
Helaman 13 - Treatment of False Prophets
27. But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth--and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.
28. Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.
29. O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
I can guarantee that if your Living Oracles would call this “reverend” to repentance, condemning his meddling in Marxist, freedom destroying politics, calling him out on his support of baby-butchering abortion, decrying his financial support towards the rioters, insurrectionists and murderers of BLM, calling him a thief for supporting the legal theft called slave reparations, and rebuking him for supporting and promoting sexual perversions, the man would not be so complimentary. Give him $10,000,000.00, and he may, indeed as seen, will, kiss whatever body part you make available.
That's how true prophets are treated. That's how false prophets are treated.
Conclusion
I will leave the next verse without comment.
Matthew 10
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.