Salvation and Redemption
Is it true that not everyone will be saved by God, but many people will go to hell?
Michael Hickenbotham
The answer depends entirely on who you believe.
Most conservative Christian denominations believe the Bible condemns all but those who claim Jesus Christ as their Savior and believe certain orthodox doctrines. Many liberal Christians believe in universalism (the eventual salvation of all mankind). There are other Christians like Latter-day Saints who believe the overwhelmingly vast majority of the billions of human beings who have ever lived will inherit what is heaven to them. In other words, they won’t be disappointed where they end up because they’ll go where they know they belong based on the laws that they’ve learned to love.
Non-Christian religions believe in a variety of outcomes after this life. Many believe our spirit will reincarnate in various life forms or live additional spiritual lives.
Ray Farmer
SAYS YOU: "'Is it true that....' The answer depends entirely on who you believe."
ME: Trying to decipher this. You can't be saying that whatever we believe is true is the truth. If I know you, I will assume that you don't believe this. What you did mean will, in my mind, be unclear.
SAYS YOU: "Most conservative Christian denominations believe the Bible condemns all but those who claim Jesus Christ as their Savior and believe certain orthodox doctrines. "
ME: Certainly a straw-man. Faith in Jesus is what saves. Orthodoxy is not a part of saving faith.
SAYS YOU: "Many liberal Christians believe in universalism (the eventual salvation of all mankind). There are other Christians like Latter-day Saints..."
ME: Like it or not, as the LDSaint Church becomes more and more liberal, they slip into the Universalism you claim other liberal churches believe. Let's look at the last General Conference.
Seer Dallin Oaks, in the beginning of his monumental discourse, states:
"The revealed doctrine of the restored Church of J_______ C_____ teaches that all the children of God—with exceptions too limited to consider here—will finally wind up in a kingdom of glory."
He hints that everybody but a minuscule number will be glorified. However, he drops the "limited exceptions" immediately as if there were none and this for the rest of this talk. Says he "He has revealed that He 'glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands'.” And then he proclaims "Under that plan there are multiple kingdoms so that all of His children can be assigned to a kingdom where they can 'abide.'”
Apparently, that is the direction of "modern" doctrine is heading. Oddly, the word "faith" is not to be found in the entire discourse! Rather, "the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan. Under that plan there are multiple kingdoms so that all of His children can be assigned to a kingdom where they can 'abide.'"
Hence, the LDSaint of 2022 will accept the fact that the filthy rebellious wicked will eventually receive salvation, which I assume, to you, means "abiding" in the Kingdom of God in glory. Says your Prophet, Seer and Revelator Oaks, the Father "saves all the works of his hands. That salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory".
How someone can believe the Book of Mormon and believe the above is beyond me. From beginning to end that Book teaches that the filthy cannot enter the Kingdom, that one cannot be saved in their sins, that if one dies in their sins they remain in their sins at and after the judgement and that mercy has claims only on believers in Christ. To think that the wicked who die in their sins yet enter the Kingdom of God/Heaven makes God a liar for He says clearly that they will not. Yet you will put child abusers, rapists, murderers and the otherwise filthy and faithless in a Kingdom of Glory!
Prophet, Seer and Revelator Bednar says, "Latter-day Saints believe the most loving doctrine ever taught by any Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, agnostic, atheist or what have you… the overwhelmingly vast majority of the billions of human beings who have ever lived will inherit what is heaven to them. In other words, you won’t be disappointed where you end up because you’ll go where you know you belong based on the laws that you’ve learned to love.”
Again, Revelator Bednar completely leaves out faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and our acceptance as necessary.
There was a group in the Book of Mormon called the Order of Nehor. A large portion of the Book of Mormon is devoted to warning us about this Order. What did they believe that caused so much attentions?
Alma 1:4 And [Nehor] also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
Eventually he confessed that all that was contrary to the Word of God. Soon Nehor
"...did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God" (Alma 1:15)
Contrary to Bednar the Revelator, Nehor's plan was more loving in that ALL would be redeemed rather than "the overwhelmingly vast majority of the billions of human beings". That's love!!
The diligent studier of Book of Mormon encounters the Order of Nehor later. What happens is pertinent to the discussion. A member of the Order of Nehor tells Aaron, a Christian missionary, "We do believe that God will save all men" (Alma 21:6)
Consider carefully Aaron's answer to this belief "Believest thou that the Son of God shall come to redeem mankind from their sins?" (Alma 21:7) Clearly Aaron is pointing out that this Universalist doctrine is contrary to the Doctrine that Jesus comes to save people FROM their sins, not IN them.
The follower of Nehor responds "We do not believe in these foolish traditions....neither do we believe that thy fathers and also that our fathers did know concerning the things which they spake" (Alma 21:8)
What did "our fathers" know concerning this topic? Let's look at the meeting of a lawyer and a convert.
"And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.... I said he shall not save his people in their sins. And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins".
1 Nephi 15:32-35
And why can "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Nephi explains this to his brothers. Everyone "must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.
Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell...
[Side Note: I know you believe hell is experienced between death and the resurrection. However, we see in the above citation that hell is a place people, the filthy, go AFTER the resurrection and Judgement. Additionally, this life is the days of probation that ends at mortal death. No "purging" after death.]
Alma 5
Alma: I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
Oaks: Well, of course. He saves all the works of His hands even those who subjected themselves to the devil!
Alma: I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people FROM their sins.
Jesus Adds: And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
Oaks: Well, I teach all this is done according to laws we keep.
Moroni agrees with His Savior: And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.
SAYS YOU: "the overwhelmingly vast majority of the billions of human beings who have ever lived will inherit what is heaven to them"
SAYS REVELATOR BEDNAR: "you won’t be disappointed where you end up because you’ll go where you know you belong based on the laws that you’ve learned to love"
ME: I would like to see anything in the scriptures that even hint at this. Instead, we read that people will be "cast out" which implies they are going somewhere they didn't want to go. This is scriptural.
The five foolish virgins wanted to come in because they thought that is where they belong. Too bad, because "the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." You were fooling yourself assigning yourself this place. Pretty disappointing.
Jesus also addressed some who thought they should be let in. "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out”.
We also find, in the Book of Mormon, people imagining that they can plead the wonderful works they did, according to the laws they learned to love. Some, apparently, think they should dwell with God and will even consider lying to Him!
I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?
Yes, Lord. We loved laws. We were righteous enough to feel comfortable dwelling with you!
Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say--Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth--and that he will save you?
No, indeed. Many will pick for themselves a wonderful heaven that they think they deserve but will be cast out of that place which they imagined would be their comfortable inheritance.
Unfortunately, they will be disappointed in this their desire. "...the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!"
If only your Prophets, Seers and Revelators had not treated the Book of Mormon and Bible so lightly, they would not be under the condemnation of a darkened mind. This would have been Oaks' message instead:
Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely;
Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire--
For behold, the time is at hand that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness, the same have cause to wail and mourn.
It is a vain thought that people will go shopping for a glorious mansion in which they will be happy beyond comprehension. They will not pick and choose. They will be consigned by the Great Judge. And it will not be a happy ending beyond all comprehensions…NO one will be committing suicide to get there:
Alma 40
25. And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
26. But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.
Alma 42:1 ...the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
And, finally: Helaman 12
25. And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;
26. Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen.
Michael Hickenbotham
Gary,
I had just finished answering several questions comparing LDS beliefs and other religions and I guess I was still in that mode of responding when I answered this question.
We’ve already discussed your perceived differences in salvation. In my book I discussed this 27 years ago. I said:
One would think that the subject of salvation would be particularly well defined in scripture and thoroughly understood by all Christians. In fact, it is a highly debated topic of which the Bible gives only occasional details and which few Christians really understand. We should also add that virtually no one, LDS or otherwise, claims a complete understanding of the miraculous means by which the atonement was accomplished for all mankind (2 Nephi 9:21). Just as an understanding of the infinite universe exceeds man's grasp, so also Christ's infinite atonement (2 Nephi 9:7) exceeds man's finite comprehension (see James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 613). This having been said, let us examine what the scriptures reveal about salvation and the atonement.
The words salvation and saved as they are used in the scriptures may refer to deliverance from:
1. captivity - Ex. 14:13, 30; Jude 5
2. enemies - Num. 10:9; 2 Chron. 20:17; Luke 1:71
3. sin - Ps. 51:1-12; Eph. 2:5
4. physical death - Gen. 47:25; 2 Pet. 2:5
5. spiritual death - Ps. 35:9; John 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:9
6. or even God's wrath - Rom. 5:9
Unfortunately, many Christians today have a tendency to interpret scriptural references to salvation as meaning unlimited forgiveness and the assured promise of eternal life in God's kingdom. This assumption has, in turn, led much of Christendom to believe in a simple, one-step path to eternal life. Some of the fallacies of this belief will be examined later. We will at this point only define these terms in light of scripture and modern revelation.
Although no actual definition of salvation is contained in the scriptures, we can deduce the following:
1. Salvation is deliverance from sin and death or from other forms of repression (see references cited previously)
2. The gospel is referred to as the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom. 1:16; 10:13-17; 1 Cor. 1:18; D&C 68:4)
3. The source of salvation is God's grace (Eph. 2:5, 8; Titus 2:11; 2 Nephi 10:24; 25:23) or in other words God's mercy and love (Rom. 5:8-9; Titus 3:5; LDS Bible Dict. - grace, p. 697)
4. God's grace and love were manifest in Christ's vicarious sacrifice (John 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:9; 3 Nephi 27:14; Moroni 10:32-33) and is effective solely through that "means" (also referred to as "the way" - John 1:12; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Rom. 5:2, 19-21; 6:23; Heb. 10:10; 2 Nephi 31:20-21; Mosiah 4:7-8; 5:7-8; D&C 18:23; Moses 6:52)
5. Full salvation (i.e. exaltation and eternal life) is contingent upon obedience to the gospel and enduring in personal righteousness (see also my book)
6. Salvation is a free gift from God (Rom. 3:24; 5:15-16, 18; Eph. 3:7; 2 Nephi 2:4; 26:27; D&C 6:13; 14:7; Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 346-347; see also my book)
Modern revelation provides additional insight relative to salvation and the atonement. James E. Talmage in Jesus the Christ, chapter 3, page 23, explains:
The effect of the atonement may be conveniently considered as twofold:
1- The universal redemption of the human race from [physical] death invoked by the fall of our first parents; and
2- Salvation, whereby means of relief from the results of individual sin are provided.
The dual meaning of salvation is illustrated by Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Christ is the Savior of all men because of his victory over physical death (John 5:28; 1 Cor. 15:21-22), but he saves the believer from individual sin through his atoning sacrifice (Rom. 1:16; Alma 34:15). The believer is thus "specially" saved from both death and the consequences of sin. The twofold purpose of Christ's mission is further attested to through the symbols of the sacrament or Lord's supper. The bread symbolizes the resurrection of the body while the wine symbolizes Christ's blood shed to atone for our sins (see also Moses 1:39). Bruce R. McConkie explained that there are three categories of salvation:
1. Unconditional or general salvation, that comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality... This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind [John 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:22] ... But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek....
2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation... Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life...
3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation and eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three kingdoms within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is this salvation which the saints seek (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 669-670; see also Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 9-13).
The Book of Mormon most often is referring to #2 or 3. Salvation in lower degrees of glory come under #1.
Ray Farmer
Thank you. I am glad you at least see Oaks is turning to a very dark side.
Bruce R. McConkie and his father-in-law Joseph Fielding Smith, as seen in your references, frolicked on that dark side, too. They enjoyed asserting authoritatively some pretty wild conclusions since repudiated. They constantly relied on unstated premises that were erroneous or, at best, unsupported. They were masters of putting forth Church Doctrine but were woefully weak in supporting them with the Book of Mormon and Bible. They also were wont to spew doctrine and throw in a Bible Verse in parenthesis. It adds authority to what they stated. But if one were to follow the reference, they would see that they were almost duped.
Michael Hickenbotham
I’m sorry Gary, my mind must be wired differently from yours. I don’t see the logical connections between what I wrote and what you wrote. You’re going to have to enlighten me a bit more.
Ray Farmer
SAYS YOU: "1. Unconditional or general salvation, that comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality... This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind... But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek"
ME: Although all will be redeemed from temporal death, this does not equal salvation. Further, all though Adam was completely cast out of the presence of God, the atonement brought them back into the presence of God to an imcomplete return into his presence which brought Adam and us onto what the Book of Mormon calls the "conditions of repentance".
Mormon 9
12. Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
13. And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
So, there is a universal redemption from temporal death, But this is not "salvation". The step that must be kept in mind is that "they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar".
Those who inherit the Kingdom of Heaven are the ones that are saved. But none will be saved in their sins who die in their sins at the end of this mortal probation. The Atonement saves FROM the sins those who, before death, have faith in Christ and bring forth fruits meet for repentance and undergo the "mighty change".
Mosiah 27
25. And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26. And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
Alma 11
36. ...I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
37. And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
So we see that this limited redemption is different from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. All are redeemed from mortal death, but not all inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, which is salvation, except those who are born again, "changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters"
Mosiah 2
33. For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
36. ...ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you...
37. I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.
38. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
39. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.
1 Nephi 15:35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
So we see that only those who are saved from their sins in this day of probation are saved because they will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The final state of any of us is "to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out".
We see a redemption that goes beyond the redemption from mortal death in Mosiah 16
2. And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not.
3. ...all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
4. Thus all mankind were lost; and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state.
5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
So God redeems "his people" from their lost (perdition) and fallen state. Others who persist in their carnal state abide as if there were no redemption made! One must not harden one's heart in this life, this probation, this day of repentance.
Alma 34
31. Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
Mosiah 15
26. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
27. Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.
Finishing up, we must conclude that salvation is far different from redemption from mortal death. Therefore, your #1 is unnecessarily and dangerously unclear and confusing.
#2 is partially Book of Mormon doctrine. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation..." This is the Salvation the Book of Mormon speaks of more or less. It overlooks "the mighty change" and celestial kingdom, unless what is meant "heavenly kingdom" is foreign to the Book of Mormon and Bible. The Book of Mormon recognizes two kingdoms, two "hands" only - the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the devil:
Alma 41:4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--
One chooses eternal life or spiritual death...one or the other as in 2 Nephi 2:27:
...they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil;
2 Nephi 9:39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.
2 Nephi 10:23 ....remember that ye are free to act for yourselves--to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.
Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
Clearly, those who are not cast out have eternal life. It is that simple. Yet you propose that "Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life". Which, one may say, there will be those in the Kingdom of God who will, at the same time, be damned (stopped in progress)!
But, according to the Book of Commandments, the greatest gift is salvation, that is, to be saved in the Kingdom of God.
Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 5, Page 15
5 ....If thou wilt do good, yea and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
I reject that doctrine that teaches there is a greater gift than the gift that sees no gift greater. You propose that a greater gift is exaltation.
However, for the most part, we agree to the above, I would imagine.
Of course, this would all be rejected by the Oaks understanding of salvation. Oaks proclaims:
A common misunderstanding of the judgment that ultimately follows mortal life is that good people go to a place called heaven and bad people go to an everlasting place called hell. This erroneous assumption of only two ultimate destinations implies that those who cannot keep all the commandments required for heaven will necessarily be forever destined for hell.
A loving Heavenly Father has a better plan for His children. The revealed doctrine of the restored Church of Jesus Christ teaches that all the children of God—with exceptions too limited to consider here—will finally wind up in a kingdom of glory....we will need to suffer for our unrepented sins....The Atonement of Jesus Christ makes all of this possible. He has revealed that He “glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands.” That salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory.
Paul, witnessing to the truth of the Book of Mormon says 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
As you can easily perceive, Oaks doctrine is opposed by the Book of Mormon and the Bible and therefore comes from beneath.
2 Nephi 28
19. For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
22. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell;
Michael Hickenbotham
…redemption from temporal death… is not "salvation"
I cited 1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." All men are saved from physical death but not from their sins.
See #4. physical death - Gen. 47:25; 2 Pet. 2:5
See also 2 Nephi 2:3-4, 8; 3 Nephi 16:20; 20:35
The Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom. Only categories 2 and 3 (in my long Friday answer above) go there. Most Book of Mormon scripture is comparing the Kingdom of God to lesser kingdoms (where God the Father does not dwell). See D&C 76:77, 86. God only presides over the Celestial Kingdom; Jesus presides over the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Holy Ghost presides over the Telestial Kingdom.
The Book of Mormon prophets believed that any reward which was not with God the Father was not eternal life. It also isn’t full salvation. See #2 in my long answer above.
I’ll let you look up 2 Nephi 2:3-4, 8; 3 Nephi 16:20; 20:35.
Ray Farmer
SAYS YOU: "I cited 1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." All men are saved from physical death but not from their sins."
ME: They are redeemed from physical death but not saved. These terms are not interchangeable. One may be redeemed from mortal death but not redeemed from their sins (saved). The righteous will be redeemed from mortal death and redeemed from their sins and, therefore, saved. “All men are saved” simply is not true.
1 Nephi 8:3 ...I have reason to suppose that they, and also many of their seed, will be saved.
Observation: This makes no sense if all are saved, if saved means resurrected.
1 Nephi 13:40 ...the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
Observation: This answers the perplexity regarding the Savior of all men. By your definition, only those who come unto Jesus will be resurrected. Jesus, as savior, offers salvation to the world. However, men must come to him to be saved.
1 Nephi 15:14 ...they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and the very points of his doctrine, that they may know how to come unto him and be saved.
Observation: Do we need to know the true points of doctrine in order to be resurrected, saved? Not all the work of God’s hands are saved.
1 Nephi 22:31 Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And thus it is. Amen.
Observation: Must we keep the commandments and endure to be resurrected? No, but we must keep them to be saved. Not all the work of God’s hands are saved.
2 Nephi 2:9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.
2 Nephi 31:15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
Observation: Do we have to believe and endure to the end in order to be resurrected? No, but salvation is different. Not all the work of God’s hands are saved.
2 Nephi 31:16 ....unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
Observation: Only those who follow the example of Jesus will be resurrected, saved? Not all the work of God’s hands are saved.
As you can deduce, all will be resurrected (redeemed from mortal death) but salvation is conditional. I can go on, but I will stop at Nephi's teachings. As observed previously, all will be redeemed from mortal death but salvation is conditional. Finally, in Helaman 12:25
And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord;
Observation: Clearly, not all are saved. All are resurrected. Interestingly, the opposite of being saved is being cast off the presence of God, not not being resurrected. You cannot interchange save/salvation with resurrection. Consider Oaks: “…Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition…” You believe the sons of perdition will be resurrected. Oaks would except them from resurrection, if saved means resurrected. But he is not talking resurrection. He is talking salvation, being saved. God does not, as copiously illustrated, save all the works of his hands.
YOU CITED: Genesis 47:24-5
And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.
And they said, Thou hast saved our lives: let us find grace in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh's servants.
ME: So Joseph saved their mortal lives by feeding them. I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand.
YOU CITED: 2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
ME: God saved Noah's family from drowning, mortal death. I don't understand why you shared this.
YOU CITED: 2 Nephi 2:3-4, 8 Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God. Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.
And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free....Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
ME: Struggling to connect. Jesus comes to bring redemption from mortal death and conditional redemption from sin and salvation is free of charge. That's explained above "the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved". However, as you read further into the chapter you cited you find "he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved". Further down "And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil;"
YOU CITED: 3 Nephi 16:20 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God.
3 Nephi 20:35 The Father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.
ME: Abinadi explains this in Mosiah 16:12! "...The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.
And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord; therefore the Lord redeemeth them not".
Observation: All will see the salvation but not all will experience it in themselves. Seeing the salvation that was rejected will cause the weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
SAYS YOU: "The Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom. Only categories 2 and 3 (in my long Friday answer above) go there. Most Book of Mormon scripture is comparing the Kingdom of God to lesser kingdoms (where God the Father does not dwell)."
ME: Oh boy. I can see where you have to concoct this to make your unscriptural degrees of glory work. But let's say this is true. What is required to enter that Celestial Kingdom. I know what you would say - Eternal Marriage, Priesthoods, Covenants, faith in Joseph Smith and President Nelson, honest tithing, and and everything involved in the temple interview. But what does the Book of Mormon say are the requirements?
2 Nephi 9:18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the [Celestial Kingdom] (see what I did there? I replaced “Kingdom of God” with “Celestial Kingdom” as you suggest)
2 Nephi 25:13 Behold, they will crucify him; and after he is laid in a sepulchre for the space of three days he shall rise from the dead, with healing in his wings; and all those who shall believe on his name shall be saved in the [Celestial Kingdom].
Jacob 6:4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the [Celestial Kingdom].
Mosiah 15:11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord--I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the [Celestial Kingdom].
3 Nephi 11:33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the [Celestial Kingdom].
Ether 5:5 And if it so be that they repent and come unto the Father in the name of Jesus, they shall be received into the [Celestial Kingdom].
The Book of Mormon seems to clearly exclude a whole bunch of your requirements. In fact, none of those requirements are found anywhere in the Book of Mormon. On the other hand, many friends here in the little Church of the Nazarene and my Christian acquaintances through the years qualify for the “Celestial Kingdom” as laid out in the Book of Mormon.
But this one I saved for last. It tells us that you will experience happiness in the Celestial Kingdom, or you will experience endless misery in the Kingdom of the Devil which, apparently, is broken down into degrees called Terrestrial and Telestial (and Perdition (not worth mentioning))! But I thought you teach that those were kingdoms of glory where joy will be beyond comprehension! Endless misery seems not to be something one would commit suicide to get to. And yet, Jesus will be in one degree of the Kingdom of the Devil and the Holy Ghost will be in another degree of the Kingdom of the Devil.
Alma 41:4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the [Celestial Kingdom], or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--
So, in the end, Oaks was wrong. God does not save all the works of His hand. Note: This division between the Celestial Kingdom and the Kingdom of the devil takes place after the resurrection and Judgement. Your bubble chart is wrong. Please update.
SAYS YOU: "God only presides over the Celestial Kingdom; Jesus presides over the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Holy Ghost presides over the Telestial Kingdom."
ME: What exactly does this mean, preside? If I remember, the degrees of glory in the Kingdom of the Devil (Terr. and Tel.) have the presence of Jesus and the Holy Ghost respectively. Let's say we untangled the above. Is the Holy Ghost a “Holy Being”? Is He a “Holy and Just God”? Then, you telestials, read Mormon 9:3. Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with THAT HOLY BEING, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws?
4. Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with A HOLY AND JUST GOD, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.
5. For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.
So apparently Telestial types would be better off in hell than to dwell with the Holy Ghost. Wait! The Telestial Kingdom IS hell! This is so confusing.
But let's settle this with some REAL authority...Irenaeus and the apostolic fathers you rely on!
“Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess“ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,“ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies“ 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,“ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies“ 4:28:2)
Or Brother Clement:
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, “There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!“ (“Second Clement“ 17:7)
Views of Theophilus
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus“ 1:14)
Hippolytus
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: “Just is your judgment!“ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks“ 3)
Felix Minucius
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment“ Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius““ 34:12“5:3)
Cyprian of Carthage
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies“ The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian“ 24)
Oh, what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris“ 55:10)
SAYS YOU: "The Book of Mormon prophets believed that any reward which was not with God the Father was not eternal life. It also isn’t full salvation."
ME: "Full Salvation"...That's new. Whatever. But if "these things" referred to in Moroni's promise are true (I assume you applied said promise), then we are "raised to endless happiness to inherit the [Celestial Kingdom], or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil [Terrestrial and Telestial], the one on one hand, the other on the other". If we are to reference the Apostolic Fathers, those "glorious" kingdoms that aren’t the Celestial Kingdom are some pretty rough places and hardly "all of which are more wonderful than we can comprehend".
Conclusion: "Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him" is false doctrine of the blackest dye.