Suffering for Own Sins
by Ray Farmer

What do you think of the Mormon model of heaven, ie the celestial terrestrial and telestial kingdoms?

Ray Farmer

I think it is an abominable doctrine concocted and promoted by false prophets and their followers.

Just consider the inhabitants of the Telestial Kingdom in LDS theology. Keep in mind that we will be describing those who will be glorified and happy beyond comprehension in the Father’s House. In section 76, Doctrine and Covenants, the dwellers of the Telestial Kingdom are those that

101. …received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
103. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

We read the following in Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023 General Conference, By President Dallin H. Oaks:

The revealing description of those assigned to the lowest of the kingdoms of glory, ….those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior. This is the kingdom where the wicked abide, after they have suffered for their sins. These are described in modern revelation as “they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. …“These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.”

The worst of the worst can be summed up with “observed no divine limits on their behavior”. These will be glorified in the kingdom of the Father. They will find happiness in one of the mansions in Father’s house. These reject the Gospel and Jesus yet inherit their mansions! This certainly is “another gospel”

Thankfully, most of us live a quiet life among like-minded people. Most Christians have come out from among the wicked and this is good. The drawback is that they become less cognizant of just how wicked and devilish people can be outside their circle of “pretty good” sins. They think of sins like being irritated at a spouse or, at the worse, eating a collogues lunch left in the office refrigerator. But the depths of the evil nature of mankind is beyond their experience and observation. So let me display the depths of depravity in this report found here on Quora on the 20th of July, 2025 where Jose Marcos Nieva posted it. I would that you would keep in mind that, according to LDS teachings, “the sisters” will be glorified in Kingdom of God. Ask yourselves, as you read, if these sisters will, indeed, qualify to spend eternity happy beyond comprehension.

The year was 1945. Prostitution in Mexico was a respectable business. The sisters were untalented and uneducated, but they certainly did not lack ambition. With few options available, the Valenzuelas started a business.

“Rancho El Ángel” was a brothel with, you guessed it, the four sisters running it.

Business was good, but the sisters wanted to expand. None of them were attractive and therefore needed new labor. An advertisement was placed in the local newspapers: maids were needed; free room and board, plus good wages. Only young females.

The response was excellent. Those who were chosen received free room and board. But no salary. They had to work as sex slaves, never go out.

Despite their booming business, the sisters wanted to expand further. They hired mercenaries to kidnap girls along the US border. Virgins were set aside for special clients who paid higher rates to perform "defloration".

More brothels were set up. First one, then another, and another and another. But the prostitutes never saw a cent for their terrible duties. They were all enslaved, forced to take heroin and cocaine.

If anyone got sick, she was killed. Whoever tried to escape was killed. If anyone refused to work, she was killed. If someone wasn't popular with the customers, she was killed. If anyone became pregnant, the fetus was extracted with a hook; if a complication occurred, the mother was killed. If a client had a lot of money, he was killed.

After nearly a decade, the police captured one of the kidnappers, one of the kidnapped women spoke out. Police searched the property and found the bodies of eighty women, eleven men and several fetuses.

When asked for an explanation, one of the sisters reportedly said: "The food didn't suit them well." Most of the bodies weren't even on the property. Police estimated that the total number of deaths was more than 150 and probably more than 200. And the victims were not killed humanely. Locked in an isolated room, they would have died of starvation. Those who were lucky were beaten to death.

Now I ask you, are these sisters joy-bound? Do you think that they can be happy to dwell with that holy being, the Holy Ghost in a mansion of the Father? The Book of Mormon asks,

Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.

That Holy Being did the utmost to call and save them. Now those sisters will be dwelling with Him!

You may cut them some slack because you will claim “they didn’t know any better”. But,

2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil.

These sisters may not have been able to engage in the intricacies of the doctrines of Christ, but they certainly knew how evil what they were doing was.

None the less, they will be glorified in the Father’s House in a wonderful place Jesus went and prepared for them according to the Mormon model of heaven.

An abomination.

Cameron Campbell

Jesus is our judge. You gloss over the part “…after having suffered for their sins…” these folks will be assigned a place by the Lord. Jesus sweat blood and shook with pain…and He was the Savior. Imagine what they will go through. It is also taught that these folks will not dwell with the Son or the Father. That will be their reward…because they rejected Christ or committed murder, etc.

The Terrestrial kingdom is reserved for those believers who did not go the extra mile…knowing what was right…but chose not to do it.

The Celestial kingdom is the domain of the Father and the Son. The righteous dwell there.

Ultimately, we go where we choose to be. The laws of those kingdoms will not be onerous to those that dwell there because they are designed to be tolerated by its inhabitants. God is not cruel. Why would He “bless" one of His children to be where they don't want to be if He respects our choices? That would be cruel…and He is not cruel.

Anyway, just my 2 cents to correct the scriptural meaning in the first paragraph.

Ray Farmer

Says You: You gloss over the part “…after having suffered for their sins…”

Says Me: Of all the wild doctrine LDSaints come up with, this is one of the most abominable. No wonder people think you aren'tChristian. Lets pause and do more than gloss over.

Christians believe that only Jesus could suffer and pay for the sins on mankind as a whole and people as individuals. As you point out, LDSaints think that sinners who die in their sins can pay the debt as spirits.

After a period in which the disobedient suffer for their sins, which suffering prepares them for what is to follow, all will be resurrected and proceed to the Final Judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023 general conference, By President Dallin H. Oaks)

Telestial Glory. That describes those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior. This is the kingdom where the wicked abide, after they have suffered for their sins. (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023 general conference, By President Dallin H. Oaks)

“The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation” (Doctrine and Covenants 138:58–59).

Sorry. This is incredibly evil and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus.

It had to be an Infinite Atonement

There should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man....it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

2 Nephi 9:7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement--save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption.

2 Nephi 25:16 ...until they shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement, which is infinite for all mankind-

Alma 34:10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Alma 34:12 …there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

Alma 34:14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Man, especially a dead on, cannot provide an infinite and eternal atonement for his own sins.

A Dead Sinner has Nothing To Pay

3 Nephi 12:26 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay,

Luke 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay,

You are an unprofitable servant. all your works were but filthy rags. You have nothing to offer as payment for your sins.

The Sacrifice was to be a Lamb Without Blemish

Ezekiel 46:4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

All we can offer is “that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD. (Malachi 1:13)

Only through Christ's Sufferings - other Suffering Excluded

Mosiah 18:2 ...the redemption of the people, which was to be brought to pass through the power, and sufferings, and death of Christ, and his resurrection and ascension into heaven.

Alma 5:27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? .... That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

Alma 21:9 ....there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

Alma 22:14 ...man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins....

Mosiah 16:13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

Alma 38:9 ...there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ.

Helaman 5:9 ....there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.

O ye LDSaints! Alma has some words for you!

Alma 5

20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Summary

To sum up the above, a man cannot atone for his own sins to become clean. The Atonement had to be done by one who knew no sin, a Lamb without blemish. Only Jesus fills that requirement. The atonement was accomplished by one who could pay the debt. Men have nothing to pay and cannot pay it themselves. The cleansing had to be infinite. Man is not that. No. Cleansing can only be done by the blood (suffering) of Christ.

I was going to go into more detail and supply more scriptural proof but I know I must be tedious. I think the above should show that man cannot suffer for their sins beyond punishment.

Besides, Jesus suffered for the sins of even those who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior. To think that the wicked dead can suffer a second time for their sins is ridiculous. The Gospel clearly teaches that one must accept the atonement in this life or there will be no redemption made.

Says You: Ultimately, we go where we choose to be.

Says Me: Choice requires knowledge of the alternatives. Do you really believe the inhabitants are picking through the various choices that the LDSaints created? Does the man on the barstool think to himself, "I like drinking. I know this will land me in the Telestial Kingdom, but I choose whiskey". So silly.

Russell M. Nelson recently wrote: “Mortal lifetime is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: During this mortal life you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey—those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial—and, therefore, in which kingdom of glory you will live forever. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.” (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023 general conference, By President Dallin H. Oaks)

Notice he said "During this mortal life you get to choose". You think choosing goes on after this mortal life. Beyond that, mankind is not choosing among your kingdoms as their final destination. Where the alternatives are unknown, there is no choice presented. There is no agency.

The Book of Mormon warns the LDSaints against LDSaint doctrine.

2 Nephi 28:7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

Yes, LDSaints will tell us, you can reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on your behavior and yet “all will be well”. The telestial is happy beyond comprehension! Not so bad! And,

2 Nephi 28:8. And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry....for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Nephi labels these ideas "false and vain and foolish doctrines". Any Christian with a little bit of reading the Bible would agree with Nephi.

The sons of Mosiah were eager to do missionary work among the Lamanites,

Mosiah 28:3 Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble.

You would counsel them to cool their jets. No soul, except so few that they won't be considered here, "should endure endless torment". Further, you would read them Doctrine and Covenants 76:43. Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands.

There, our loving Savior, who, we are taught, “glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands,” will send all the children of God to one of these kingdoms of glory according to the desires manifested through their choices. (Kingdoms of Glory, October 2023 general conference, By President Dallin H. Oaks), even those who "reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior".

That which you have received from the Beginning

All must rely on the Blood of Christ and His merits. He is the Way. There is no other way. The heavens stood in silence for the space of an hour and found that only one was worthy. The only way to become clean is, not through one's payment or suffering, but by accepting what Jesus has already done for them.

Begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people, and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; I desire that ye shall plant this word in your hearts, and as it beginneth to swell even so nourish it by your faith. And behold, it will become a tree, springing up in you unto everlasting life.