Adam Berkely
SAYS Adam: "The gospel of Jesus Christ is Jehovah‘s supplemental plan to the father’s plan, to bring back the children of heavenly father to his presence As glorified resurrected beings and agents unto themselves capable of meeting the demands of justice in the Eternal realm to which they are assigned at the judgment."
SAYS ME: "What? The gospel of Jesus Christ is father’s plan. How is it that you can say it is supplemental?
A glorified resurrected being will already have passed and, through Jesus, has overcome all of the demands of justice. Those who don’t take advantage of the blood of Christ will be in the grasp of Justice for eternity. They will exist as if no redemption was made, therefore the will be incapable of meeting the demands of justice after death.
That is Book of Mormon doctrine. On request, I will supply citations on which that doctrine is based. I will, however, believe that you have read the Book and all of the statements will be familiar.
You are a returned missionary? Did you spend two years teaching what you shared here?"
SAYS Adam: "The Father presented a plan at the grand council in heaven and sought among his children for a plan to bring mortal man back into the presence of God. Here is where at least two rose and said “here am I, send me.”
They presented their plan that supplemented the Father’s plan. Lucifer’s plan claimed to bring all back and not one soul would be lost. However it was not acceptable because it did not sufficiently provide a way for man to develop agency anywhere near the level to which the Father has, nor a path to become such.
Jehovah’s plan was chosen because it glorified the Father by providing a way for His children to become true agents unto themselves and progress into Eternity with that power and virtue.
The Book of Mormon is not the source for this information. The Bible and the Pearl of Great Price are.
Repeatedly Jesus and his servants have warned that if men do not repent they must suffer even as he did. Whether souls are purged of their sins through Christ’s atonement or by serving time in Spirit Prison and suffering for their own sins, every soul must be purged in order to stand before God to be resurrected and judged, in order to receive their glory in the Eternities. The Atonement is only one way to get there."
ME: Sorry, but that is some convoluted doctrine. If those who wonder if the Church is Christian would be convinced it isn't by your explanation. That statement deserves explanation.
SAYS YOU: "Repeatedly Jesus and his servants have warned that if men do not repent they must suffer even as he did"
ME: Anyone who repeats this is repeating it from one scripture in D&C 19
15. Therefore I command you to repent--repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17. But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18. Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink--
19. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20. Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
Let’s assume the above is true (it isn’t). Do you see anywhere in the above that those who suffer even as Jesus did will be "purged" by their suffering?
Consider the Verse in the Book of Mormon that directly addresses those who think this way.
2 Nephi 28:8-9 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines,
Does Section 19 say that one will suffer only for his own sins? No. It says everyone who doesn't repent will suffer for the sins of the whole world...."even as I". Who can do that? You?
"..these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit".
The punishment is the withdrawal of His spirit. This is Book of Mormon doctrine. However, the spirit will withdraw and never come back after your purgatory (your purging...same word). Instead, once the spirit of the Lord departs, it is replaced by the spirit of the devil. He has all power over you. He seals you his. You are subject to the devil. The devil will not let you repent. That is why you can't repent after death. That is the final state of the wicked:
Alma 34:34-5 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
Final. No moving out of that state.
There will be a punishment, not a purging.
LDSaint doctrine (watch Oaks and Cook at last conference, April '22) states that in the end all will be saved "with exceptions too limited to consider here". Book of Mormon prophets went out of their way to warn against this false doctrine by exposing the religion of Nehor to your view.
Alma 1:4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
Nehor, in case you don't know, was a false prophet. In the end, "they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death".
SAYS YOU: "every soul must be purged in order to stand before God to be resurrected and judged"
ME: that is patently false. There will be those not "purged" at the resurrection and judgement. See Mosiah 3:
24. ....at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.
25. And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.
26. Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them....therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.
27. And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.
SAYS YOU: "The Atonement is only one way to get there."
ME: This is the most abominable thing you stated. Serious? Do you really think Heavenly Father sent his son to die for us if there were an alternative plan? You may think so (apparently most LDSaints would agree with you and the Living Oracles), but let’s see what the scriptures say. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
Mosiah 3:17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
Mosiah 16:13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?
Alma 38:9 And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ.
Helaman 5:9 O remember, remember, my sons, the words which king Benjamin spake unto his people; yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come; yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.
Mosiah 4
6. I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body--
7. I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.
8. And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.
2 Nephi 31
20. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21. And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
I could go on, but if the above don't teach you that there is no other way except through the atonement of Christ, then 50 more will not convince you.
Now, you may poo-poo the above because it came from the Book of Mormon. Just remember that, as a missionary, you waved that Book in everyone’s face and testified that God told you that it was true. Were you a false witness? When one places the Book of Mormon on the alter in the Temple, don’t you make a covenant regarding it?
Says Mormon, And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
Says Adam:
You wrote: “Let’s assume the above is true (it isn’t). Do you see anywhere in the above that those who suffer even as Jesus did will be "purged" by their suffering?”
==
Perhaps you are reading too far into my use of the word “purged.” I’m not suggesting they are suddenly Celestial Kingdom material, here. Only that they will have to be cleansed sufficiently to be able stand before the judgment throne, no sooner than they can pay their debt of all sin they committed in mortality.
There will be advancement in the world of spirits before the resurrection.
“The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see Doctrine and Covenants 138). If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.”
Library App: Gospel Topics:Spirit World
What, do you imagine that any spirit will stand before the great judgment throne of God not purged from their sins of the flesh, somehow ready for resurrection? How about you tell me how that’s supposed to work. Before any soul advances into resurrection they are going to have to satisfy the demands of justice, otherwise their fate will be the same as Lucifer and the third part of heaven that were cast out after the grand council in heaven. Having paid for their sins [not referring to Lucifer and the third part with him] the Atonement will still allow them to receive glory, and they will at last qualify for the Telestial glory:
“After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.“
Library App: Gospel Topics:Spirit World
This is their promise for keeping their First Estate.
No prophet anywhere has ever taught that unrepentant spirits in prison have to suffer for the sins of the whole world “as [Christ] did” while they are in prison.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
Unrepentant spirits will suffer for their own sins, even as Christ suffered for them, not for the entire world’s sins “as Christ” did.
Says Gary:
SAYS YOU: "they will have to be cleansed sufficiently to be able stand before the judgment throne, no sooner than they can pay their debt of all sin they committed in mortality."
ME: The Book of Mormon Blows this theory out of the water. You will see that those who die in their sins will be unclean in the judgement.
Alma 40
21. ....there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
22. Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.
25. And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
26. But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.
Notice that the misery between death and the resurrection lasts "until" the resurrection. No switching between hell and paradise! They die unclean and they are raised unclean. No "purging" between death and the resurrection, so it is impossible that "they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.”
2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.
Mosiah 2:38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
Besides, I don't know how you missed this in my previous comment, but they cannot pay for their own sins.
SAYS YOU: "What, do you imagine that any spirit will stand before the great judgment throne of God not purged from their sins of the flesh, somehow ready for resurrection? How about you tell me how that’s supposed to work."
ME: Well, Lets let Alma explain this to you
Alma 41
9. And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
14. Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.
15. For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.
Basically, if you die in your sins you stand before the judgement seat unredeemed, "having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness".
Alma 5
20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
22. And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?
23. Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
Please note: There is no alternative to the Atonement. No suffering to pay for and purge your own sins: “no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
I just don’t know what can be more clear to the honest heart. This is just the most basic gospel principle ever.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
SAYS YOU: "Before any soul advances into resurrection they are going to have to satisfy the demands of justice, otherwise their fate will be the same as Lucifer"
ME: They cannot satisfy the demands of justice. Jesus has to do that. If he doesn't, the enemy of God remains in the grasp of justice. God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice.
Alma 42
10. Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11. And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12. And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13. Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14. And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15. And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
SAYS YOU: "their fate will be the same as Lucifer"
ME: Exactly. 2 Nephi 9
15. And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God.
16. And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
SAYS YOU: "No prophet anywhere has ever taught that unrepentant spirits in prison have to suffer for the sins of the whole world “as [Christ] did” while they are in prison."
ME: *sigh*. Joseph Smith put the words in the mouth of Jesus. Doctrine and Covenants 19:17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore..."
Obviously a reference to the Garden of Gethsemane. What caused him to bleed from every pore? Suffering for the sins of the world. That's how you would have to suffer. Even as he did. I don’t believe any of that, by the way.
SAYS YOU: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression."
ME: Nothing about purging here nor an end to punishment.
Finally
Do you realize that the Church teaches that even if the wicked do not repent of their sins nor accept Christ's atonement nor accept the baptism that you vicariously performed on their behalf that they still will be glorified in the Kingdom of Heaven???
[Hell] is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples. Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory. - True to the Faith
I know there were lengthy citations above. I think if you read the actual Book of Mormon instead of the carefully selected snippets in that "Come Follow Me", you will get a full view of the true doctrine of the plan of salvation. Don't try to make the Book of Mormon fit the ideas of salvation you have expressed here. Read the Words of the Book for what they say. It takes courage, I know.
Says Adam
You wrote: “I think if you read the actual Book of Mormon instead of the carefully selected snippets in that "Come Follow Me", you will get a full view of the true doctrine of the plan of salvation. Don't try to make the Book of Mormon fit the ideas of salvation you have expressed here.”
==
How about if I accept both? Do you place the works of dead prophets above the works of the living prophets and apostles? The works of the living servants of God give clarity to the doctrines, and reconcile correctly to the revelations and teachings of God’s previous servants.
I remain unmoved. I do not believe that your interpretation of the suffering required by the demands of justice are at all just if men must suffer for the world’s sins if they don’t repent. There are some reading comprehension problems in you if you can’t understand that when The master declares that “if men do not repent then they must suffer even as I” is referring to the suffering that he endured for and in behalf of each of us individually, not collectively. The demands of justice require no more than that. Jesus took upon himself the world’s sin because he was required to answer the demands of justice for all individuals, to know how to succor the repentant, and know to what latitude his mercy reaches before it begins robbing justice.
I am happy that you use the Book of Mormon. But your words come across to me as forsaking “other” doctrinal explanations from the Church for the sake of your own interpretation of the Book of Mormon prophets. Where is your demonstration of willingness to consider what you have not considered by reconciling with the words of our contemporary prophets and apostles?
You wrote: “Besides, I don't know how you missed this in my previous comment, but they cannot pay for their own sins.”
==
They can and do pay for their own sins according to the conditions that Christ has set, while they suffer in spirit prison. Otherwise they cannot come out of Hell, according to the conditions Christ has set, and be resurrected, nor judged.
You wrote: “Jesus has to do that.”
==
Jesus HAS done that! Perhaps you’re arguments here are based on conditions that existed prior to the resurrection of Jesus? My arguments are based on the state of affairs today, what mankind faces today, not what mankind had to look forward to, before Christ’s resurrection.
You wrote: “You will see that those who die in their sins will be unclean in the judgement.”
==
As repentance (and thus a form of purging) precedes baptism and confirmation into the Church, so too is there a need for cleansing (and thus a form of purging) before a soul enters Eternity as a resurrected, glorified personage. The appetites and desires that an individual acquires in mortality may rise with them in the resurrection (thus, they are resurrected to various glories), but certainly you cannot say that the soul (body and spirit) remains as corrupted as he was in mortality. Certainly you aren’t trying to persuade me that the “same corruption” Alma refers to is anything more than the intelligence and desires (the spirit) of that soul that will rise in the resurrection. Otherwise, what gives the soul added glory in the resurrection? Every degree of glory in heaven will ADD to the glory experienced in mortality.
You wrote: “Do you realize that the Church teaches that even if the wicked do not repent of their sins nor accept Christ's atonement nor accept the baptism that you vicariously performed on their behalf that they still will be glorified in the Kingdom of Heaven???”
==
Only if they bend their knee and confess with their tongues that Jesus is the Christ. If they don’t, then they are revealed as Sons of Perdition. They kept their first estate. Their suffering in spirit prison has met the demands of justice set by Christ, author and finisher of their fate, and if they will but confess to Jehovah’s work, they will have place in the Father’s kingdom.
But the Book of Mormon doesn’t tell you this. Where did you get it? It seems to be counter to the points you have argued thus far using the Book of Mormon as support to those arguments.
Says Gary
First of all, I enjoy discussing these doctrines with you and appreciate the time and effort you share.
SAYS YOU: "Do you place the works of dead prophets above the works of the living prophets and apostles?"
ME: Yes I do, as commanded by the Book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write [Book of Mormon]; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write [Bible]; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins [Book of Mormon], and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible], shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
See also Exekiel 37 where it talks about two sticks being put together to answer questions.
It is assumed that we will be receiving the word of God through dead guys.
2 Nephi 26:16 For those who shall be destroyed shall speak unto them out of the ground, and their speech shall be low out of the dust, and their voice shall be as one that hath a familiar spirit; for the Lord God will give unto him power, that he may whisper concerning them, even as it were out of the ground; and their speech shall whisper out of the dust.
Moroni 10:27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
Look at the importance King Benjamin places on the writings of dead guys: Mosiah 1:
2. ...they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.
3. And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.
4. For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; ...he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
5. I say unto you, my sons, were it not for these things, which have been kept and preserved by the hand of God, that we might read and understand of his mysteries, and have his commandments always before our eyes, that even our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief, and we should have been like unto our brethren, the Lamanites, who know nothing concerning these things, or even do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the traditions of their fathers, which are not correct.
6. O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are true. And behold, also the plates of Nephi, which contain the records and the sayings of our fathers from the time they left Jerusalem until now, and they are true; and we can know of their surety because we have them before our eyes.
7. And now, my sons, I would that ye should remember to search them diligently, that ye may profit thereby;
Lehi, Benjamin, the sons of Mosiah were all Living Oracles. They however, loved and relied on the writings of dead guys.
The people of Nephi wondered about "that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way". Nephi tells them 4 things in 2 Nephi 32.
1) ...feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
2) ...the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do
3) ...he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
4) ...do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me.
Neither here nor anywhere does it tell us to run to Living Oracles to find out what we should do. If someone does claim to be a living Oracle, we are to be like the Bereans who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".
One of the easiest ways to determine true or false prophets by the word is to consider this:
Matthew 7
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets...
In other words, if a prophet is teaching that broad is the way that leads to life, he is a false prophet. There are few ways wider than the LDSaint way to glory. Almost everybody, good or evil, will be glorified. That is Broad! And the way to destruction? So narrow that they aren't even worth a mention by Oaks. Beware of false prophets.
SAYS YOU: "The works of the living servants of God give clarity to the doctrines, and reconcile correctly to the revelations and teachings of God’s previous servants."
ME: I guess that is a way to distinguish between Living servants of God and false prophets, if their revelations reconcile to the scriptures. That’s my measurement. That's why the 15 Apostles can safely be dismissed.
SAYS YOU: "Where is your demonstration of willingness to consider what you have not considered by reconciling with the words of our contemporary prophets and apostles?"
ME: I was a member for 24 years. Endowed, seminary teacher, Institute instructor, Gospel Doctrine Teacher, Ward Clerk, Missionary to Italy and more. I was converted by the Book of Mormon. All of those years I tried my best, wresting the Book of Mormon to try to reconcile it to the Doctrine of the Living Oracles. I gave up. It was an impossible, soul-destroying endeavor. I stuck with the Book of Mormon. For the next twenty-six years I attended church with my wife. I know the contemporary prophets and apostles. In this last twenty years they have drifted farther from the Book of Mormon then they were when I threw up my hands.
SAYS YOU: "certainly you cannot say that the soul (body and spirit) remains as corrupted as he was in mortality. Certainly you aren’t trying to persuade me that the “same corruption” Alma refers to is anything more than the intelligence and desires (the spirit) of that soul that will rise in the resurrection. Otherwise, what gives the soul added glory in the resurrection? "
ME: Your Joseph Smith definition of soul (body and spirit) is not scriptural.
Alma 40:23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body;
Alma 40:11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection...they are departed from this mortal body
Alma 40:15 ...the soul, before the resurrection...a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul...
Alma 41:2 ...the soul of man should be restored to its body
Be that as it may, All will be resurrected into immortal, perfect bodies.
Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Here we see good and bad will be resurrected with perfect bodies and then they will be judged according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil. So yes, there will be corrupt evil spirits in perfect bodies at the judgement, after your assumed purgatory where they were supposed to have purged themselves, by punishment for their own sins.
SAYS YOU: "they still will be glorified in the Kingdom of Heaven...Only if they bend their knee and confess with their tongues that Jesus is the Christ. If they don’t, then they are revealed as Sons of Perdition. "
ME: Oooops. In the judgement there will be many who Confess Jesus, but it will be too late. They remain as if no redemption was made, whether Christ was the source of redemption or themselves (as you propose). I know the following is a long citation, but it includes all the elements that we are discussing:
Alma 12
12. And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.
13. Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned.
14. For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.
15. But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.
16. And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.
17. Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.
18. Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.
SAYS YOU: "they still will be glorified in the Kingdom of Heaven...But the Book of Mormon doesn’t tell you this. Where did you get it? It seems to be counter to the points you have argued thus far using the Book of Mormon as support to those arguments."
ME: I quoted "True to the Faith". I think you may have misunderstood in thinking I believed the quote. I think it is anti-Christ. It is on the Church website, too.
Hell
SAYS YOU: "your own interpretation of the Book of Mormon prophets."
ME: Here is my consistent observation. When I present Book of Mormon citations that seem to contradict doctrine of the Living Oracles, I am told that I am misinterpreting. What follows is what is a copy and paste of what is taught by the church (which I know) that contradicts the Book of Mormon followed by heart-felt testimony. Nobody EVER says something like, "I see, Ray, you cite Alma 11:26-31 to prove that the concept of multiple Gods is unscriptural. But, friend, you misinterpreted verse 29. The true interpretation is........"
Instead, I get "you have misinterpreted verse 29. What the Church teaches is 'gods and lords many'. I know the Church is true, therefore I believe in 'gods and lords many'. So you are misinterpreting”.
SAYS YOU: "They can and do pay for their own sins according to the conditions that Christ has set, while they suffer in spirit prison. Otherwise they cannot come out of Hell, according to the conditions Christ has set, and be resurrected, nor judged...so too is there a need for cleansing (and thus a form of purging) before a soul enters Eternity as a resurrected, glorified personage."
ME: Is this church doctrine? In 50 years, I have never heard this. If I understand you, you are saying that the only way to get out of spirit prison is to be clean enough to stand before the judgement bar. Therefore, if one is not covered by the atonement of Christ, they have to be tortured for their own sins until they paid the uttermost farthing. Then they are clean enough to be glorified in the Telestial Kingdom of Heaven This is as a reward for what they did in the pre-existance. And even though they are actual enemies of God in mortal life, in the life between death and the resurrection they can be purged through their own torture. Where can I read up on this?
Adam says;
You restated: “…you are saying that the only way to get out of spirit prison is to be clean enough to stand before the judgement bar. Therefore, if one is not covered by the atonement of Christ, they have to be tortured for their own sins until they paid the uttermost farthing[?]”
==
Prison is after all a place to pay for one’s transgressions for the sake of righting wrongs. Likely not one soul will go straightway from prison to the judgement bar. More, from prison to paradise where further preparations are available.
I don’t believe spirits will “get out of spirit prison” until they have met the conditions that Christ has set to pay for their sins. Surely that isn’t unreasonable to you.
Let’s look at the 3rd Article of Faith again:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
I see a key word here, “may” be saved through the Atonement of Christ. It doesn’t say “shall” or “will” be saved. It says “may” be saved. Seems to introduce the possibility of working out salvation a little differently than the program is designed. At least I don’t rule it out. (Not that I’m seeking to side-step what is rightfully Jehovah’s to administer)
Ray Farmer
· Just now
You are obviously stuck on the idea that one can pay for their own sins. I have given a multitude of scriptures that show only in and thru Christ’s blood can we be clean. I have requested, sincerely, for something I can read on your beliefs.
God cannot lie
Enos 1:6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie;
I am not sure that you hold the same conviction. Tell me if you think God is lying in the following regarding God lying.
3 Nephi 27:18-9 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
Why do you think he had to add “he lieth not”? Because, maybe, LDSaints just don’t believe that one has to have faith and repent in this life. They accuse Him of lying, since they have found “an alternative”.
Alma asks you, “I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?”
Your answer, apparently would be “yes”. We can be subject to the devil all our lives and then just pay for our sins between death and the resurrection in the spirit reformatory.
You mean, Alma would ask, you think those whose garments are stained with blood and all manner of filthiness…those guilty of all manner of wickedness…do ye suppose that such an one can have place to sit down in the kingdom of God?
Well, yes, if they suffer for their sins in the spirit reformatory.
Alma tries again. “Do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil”.
He can explain that the ONLY way is through the Blood of Christ. Outside of that, there is no salvation, no mercy, no redemption. No alternative to the atonement. No lie.
Alma 5:21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
All of this salvation stuff has to take place in this mortal life. I don’t know how this can be made more clear than in the following.
Alma 34
32. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
Look, I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have taught out of it extensively throughout our dialog. Do you not find that a little disturbing? You claim to believe that Book. You claim to have prayed about it. You say God told you the truth of it through the Holy Ghost. And yet, you reject the plain and precious parts and adhere to some unscriptural alternative.
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
I have given you scripture after scripture from the “most correct” book, yet you come up with:
“Prison is after all a place to pay for one’s transgressions for the sake of righting wrongs. Likely not one soul will go straightway from prison to the judgement bar. More, from prison to paradise where further preparations are available”.
Where, I ask, did any of that come from?
Now, you may content yourself believing that I misinterpret the Book of Mormon. You have not demonstrated where in any citation I am wrong. You counter with a recitation of your beliefs. No reference. And yet you tell me I am misinterpreting at least I am referring to a book supposedly we have in common.
I will attempt again to show you some plain and precious parts. You state
“Likely not one soul will go straightway from prison to the judgement bar.”
Actually, your experience at the Judgement bar is determined at the moment of your death. If you “die in your sins”, the outcome at the judgement is fixed. You could say you go directly from mortal death to the Judgement bar, with a short stop in between.
Your eternal prospects could even be determined by what you were thinking when you died!
Moroni 8:14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
Your Place Determined at Death
Alma 12
16. And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.
17. Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.
18. Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice;
Game over at death. Here are some supporting citations
Mosiah 2:38-9 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.
Mosiah 2:33 …who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
Mosiah 15:26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins;
Conclusion
I joined the Church in 1974 after getting a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I left in the late ’90s because, after struggling for years trying to reconcile the Book of Mormon to the Living Oracles, I threw up my hands. Mine was an impossible task because the plan of redemption in the Book of Mormon is diametrically opposed the the “Covenant Path” of the LDSaints. They are not only different…they are contradictory.
I think you expressed LDS doctrine as well as I have seen: “The Atonement is only one way to get there”.
The Book of Mormon says it is the only way.