*** Your Title Here ***

Gary, another poignant, meaty, incredibly well fleshed out argument, which I have no doubt is orchestrated for my edification and the love you have for me and my soul's eternal safety.

You might be surprised to know how much I esteem your words and thoughts. How powerful and pursuasive I find your ministry.

Yet, and yes, there is THAT YET, I see you write things like your last missive comparing protestants and lds and that in your opinion the Book of Mormon was brought forth for PROTESTANTS by Joseph Smith Jr!

When I read something like that from you, you entirely lose any veracity of truth in your ministry!

Do you really not perceive how heretical that sounds?!

That Joseph Smith is a false prophet by your determination, brings forth by sacred, Heaven sent translation of the plates into a book or Christ that you venerate and esteem to be the most correct book of Christ EVER WRITTEN, the dichotomy just blows my mind!!

That your brilliant, legal mind, so plugged in to the scriptures and the staunchest defender of the Book of Mormon doesn't not see the complete breakdown of logic or legal argument and, imho, even more damming, my complete lack of witness to the veracity of such a construct by the Holy Spirit. I am stuttering for coherent words…

My brother, when you give me light, it is light that I can feel and see, that I can understand AND FEEL the light of Christ shining from your eyes. When you write that kind of dichotomy, I see NO LIGHT WHATSOEVER! ALL I PERCEIVE IS DARKNESS AND FIND THAT I AN WALKING WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD. It is frightening!

GARY, in deepest exasperation, I can't for the life of me (or my eternal salvation) understand this viewpoint.

Aside from actual feelings of WTH, and only perceiving the darkness purveyed by the hounds of hell, I want to pivot and run like the wind back to Gospel safety, I want to bathe in the love, happiness, peace and joy I feel when immersed in the Spirit of truth, when I am striving to “feed His Sheep” and not be lost in the “mysteries of God”!

That/this is when, I am most certain you are lost in the mysteries of God despite your morning sojourn with the Holy Spirit! It is then that I worry that you are so far into the mysteries that the “lying spirits” of 1 Kings 22 have you. Viz

15 ¶ So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: (are you prospering?) for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.

16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the Lord?

17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the Lord said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.

18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the Lord from me to speak unto thee?

25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.

Gary, your ministry, as I have mentioned in the past, leaves the ship astray without a wheel at the helm. You are not feeding as many sheep as possible, and are leading little lambs astray!

How do you not see this??!!

You unwittingly have set yourself up as a prophet! How can it possibly be that my brother Gary Farmer is THE ONLY PERSON EVER TO SEE THE WORD OF GOD IN THE BIBLE AND THE BOOK OF MORMON AND BE THE ONLY INTERPRETER OF THE TRUTHS THERE IN?!?!

Before you fire up the scriptures, please reread that last paragraph. Yes you will allow that other Good Christians find the same truths you have. But not in the bible AND THE like BOOK OF MORMON! Like you have!

You will not find another active LDS that will agree with you, although I know that's not important to you presently. But shouldn't it be? What about your active LDS family members, or even me?

Gary, I wish I could be different for you, but the truth of this is that, I believe in the Eternal Plan of Salvation and of its greater significance than any one prophet, Church or individual.

I believe “Feed my Sheep” is an essential mandate that requires a God given vehicle to administer to as many people as possible in these last days, not cull them from the herd one by one.

And as for the truly great Christians in all other churches, certainly they exist! But they have demonstrated a complete lack of cohesion! Hence, they will never be the chosen vehicle to bring forth the Book of Mormon, nor effectively spread the Good News throughout the world as this Church is doing. Why? Because this is the chosen vessel of the restoration. Because God knows all He has to work with are imperfect sinners, prophets or not! And, He makes use of those imperfect people not only to spread the good word but to test our mettle and remove our dross!

God prepared the Book of Mormon to be brought forth and translated by pure inspiration by a young man prone to errors of levity amongst other imperfections. That He would translate the entire Book of Mormon in 60 days. TRANSLATING hours at a time without regarding the nascent manuscript at all, even when after having taken a break, he would sit down and immediately start where he left off without reading the notes, testifies to the Holy Spirit being involved and the Holy Nature of His Divine Calling!!

Certainly he had questionable moments and actions. Yet every prophet of every dispensation has had! (I can't help but feel sorry for Balaam's ass!) Moses was prevented from crossing into the promised land as wandering around the Sinai desert for 40 years listening to the complaints of the recalcitrant Jews!

Yet, by their fruits ye shall know them! Gary, what started out as a little church of the restoration, a distinctly white American Church has become truly a worldwide church of the Restored Gospel as evidenced by the nationalities imbued in the Apostles and that other than a white American may one day be prophet, seer and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints!

Despite the untoward “teachings” you accuse the Church of, it still progresses around the world, one cohesive movement bound to make its critics and Formans regail in on earnest.

I truly believe you venerate and esteem the scriptures and appreciate you don't pray to them. Yet, you hand your hat, so to speak on your morning sojourn with the Holy Spirit.. It is because I hold the Holy Spirit in such high esteem, as one of the Godhead that I have not questioned, until now, that your morning sessions were with anything but the Holy Spirit of the Godhead!

That has always been a bit of a conundrum for me since our first early communique with each other.

As you admit, the vast majority of Mormons readily disagree with you and write you off as recalcitrant and lost and unwilling to be taught or chastened by the Lord. Yet the Holy Spirit sessions I believe in and have always considered a dichotomy because of what I have learned from 35 years in this Gospel. That would be, the real ministration of the Holy Spirit will always lead you back to the fold and not away. It will lead you to light not to darkness.

But, Gary, that light is the collective light of imperfect sinners striving to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints 24/7 the best way possible! It IS A COLLECTIVE LIGHT meant to be drawn upon when needed by anyone in need!

Not meant to isolate.

My brother, whom I love dearly, I believe this has been your test and you have gotten lost in the mysteries, especially when you have to rely on other Christian writers like Wesleyan.

Sure there is the Wesleyan Church working to change lives and be a force for good in this world. I may be wrong but they will never attain the same level of accomplishment the Mormon Church has.

Please spare me the argument of saving only a few. I don't buy that because of the immensity of the preparations of His Chosen Vehicle to get the Word out to THE WORLD.

One final thought, we have bantered this about before. Remember I was a heavily science based agnostic daring God to prove His existence to me.

Remember HE DID THAT!

What may have been missed by you is that this wasn't a Holy Spirit conversion moment with the burning in the bosom, etc.

What happened first was a complete, instantaneous knowledge of His existence and truth was given to me. Literally, instantly I knew beyond any doubt that He exists and that He is God of this universe with its concomitant ramifications. Then my chest exploded with the Holy Spirit verifying everything God has just, instantly taught me.

This is really where I believe we differ. You don't look to far past the immediate concepts of Salvation by following His teachings

I know, unequivocally, that God is the creator of this vast universe and is carrying out here on earth which has been done on countless worlds before and will be done on countless worlds after.

:Because of that, God wants as many souls redeemed as possible. You say fewer will be, I say many more will receive some form of eternal salvation instead of the outer darkness as being the only other eternal option. Obviously, the demands of Justice will have to be met, the determined penalties paid The likelihood of permanently being unable to enter the Celestial Kingdom is going to be an ongoing punishment for many! But it will still not be outer darkness!

Do you not see the attached importance between our focuses? Of course you do. You are more concerned with the teaching regarding murderers. I am more concerned that there are two lesser kingdoms than the celestial kingdom and I hope to be worthy of at least the terrestrial kingdom.

Judge not, that ye be not judged…Who are you to question God's plan of salvation as regards murderous, rapists individuals? We certainly do like them nor respect them but our Heavenly Father loves them just as much as He loves us.

Anyway, ttfn.

I have been working on this response since I first read it and the Spirit moved me so mightily to get down in text what He felt you needed to hear at this time. It's been a solid three hour effort!

Love, Alan

Gary's Response

SAYS YOU: "Yet, and yes, there is THAT YET, I see you write things like your last missive comparing protestants and lds and that in your opinion the Book of Mormon was brought forth for PROTESTANTS by Joseph Smith Jr! When I read something like that from you, you entirely lose any veracity of truth in your ministry! Do you really not perceive how heretical that sounds?!"

ME: I don't know how you understood that to be my view. The Book of Mormon was brought forth for Latter-day Saints. they are the ones who carry it. They are the ones who constantly speak of their testimony of it. Many people don't have it. It was composed for Latter-day saints. This is all that one can conclude.

Behold, I would exhort you that WHEN YE SHALL READ THESE THINGS, IF IT BE WISDOM IN GOD THAT YE SHOULD READ THEM, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive THESE THINGS, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if THESE THINGS are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Notice that it is wisdom in God that those who have received these things received them. This implies that it is wisdom in God that others don't.

Further, the "these things" are the doctrines of the Book of Mormon. "These things" are what the prophets of the Book of Mormon declared. "These things" are the words of the Book of Mormon Prophets

27. And I exhort you to remember THESE THINGS; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

28. I DECLARE THESE THINGS unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

The above may seem superfluous at first. But it has been my observation that LDSaints can believe the book to be divine yet reject its teachings! However, if the Holy Ghost tells you the book is true, He is telling you that the contents, the "these things", are what is true. This sounds silly. But can anyone doubt that there was a prophet named Lehi and yet believe that the book is true? Apparently, this is the life that LDSaints live. They believe the Book when closed but reject it when opened!

For example, they teach that the "day of probation" ends at the judgment. That is why there is still time after death and before the resurrection wherein people can repent and be baptized in a spirit world. If probation ended at death, then that would not be possible.

"These things" teach otherwise. In Alma 34

31. Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, NOW IS THE TIME AND THE DAY OF YOUR SALVATION; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32. For behold, THIS LIFE IS THE TIME FOR MEN TO PREPARE TO MEET GOD; yea, behold THE DAY OF THIS LIFE IS THE DAY FOR MEN TO PERFORM THEIR LABORS.

33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for AFTER THIS DAY OF LIFE, WHICH IS GIVEN US TO PREPARE FOR ETERNITY, behold, if we do not improve OUR TIME WHILE IN THIS LIFE, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35. For behold, if ye have PROCRASTINATED THE DAY OF YOUR REPENTANCE EVEN UNTIL DEATH, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

Now, it should mystify me how someone could believe in the Book of Mormon and yet reject "these things" cited from Alma 34.

Rather than fire hose with a scriptural demonstration that what I put forth as "these things" regarding our mortal probation, I will just let you trust me that I can demonstrate that "these things" can be seen from the beginning of the Book of Mormon to the end.

Hence, one can believe that the day of probation ends at the judgement or that it ends at mortal death. One cannot logically believe both. One must believe that the Holy Ghost testifying that the Book of Mormon is true was testifying that our probation ends at death. And yet LDSaints testify that the Book of Mormon is true and also that Joseph was a prophet who taught "salvation for the dead", an obvious extension of the Day of Probation.

So, the Book of Mormon was NOT written for Protestants. They already understand and believe the "these things" found in the Book of Mormon. It was wisdom in God that LDSaints have the Book of Mormon because they reject the "these things". The Book of Mormon is a schoolmaster to bring LDSaints to shed false doctrines by powerfully teaching the corrective "these things" and spiritually testifying that "these things" are true.

SAYS YOU: "That Joseph Smith is a false prophet by your determination, brings forth by sacred, Heaven sent translation of the plates into a book or Christ that you venerate and esteem to be the most correct book of Christ EVER WRITTEN, the dichotomy just blows my mind!!"

ME: Joseph was to translate the Book of Mormon and to pretend no other gift, for he was to receive none. The 1833 book of Commandments so said "...he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift" (edited in later printings of the Doctrine and Covenants).

Clearly, one can be a gifted translator but, if one "pretends" (claims) to gifts (prophet, seer, revelator) which are not given, he is a false prophet, a false seer, and a false revelator. This is where one is subjected to a lying spirit from the Lord, as you brilliantly illustrated.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets

They sought for things, beyond the mark, that they couldn't understand.

Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses, chronicled how the lying spirit worked in the beginning of the Church. But I don't want to over-grieve you.

SAYS YOU: "You unwittingly have set yourself up as a prophet! How can it possibly be that my brother Gary Farmer is THE ONLY PERSON EVER TO SEE THE WORD OF GOD IN THE BIBLE AND THE BOOK OF MORMON AND BE THE ONLY INTERPRETER OF THE TRUTHS THERE IN?!?!"

ME: As you can see from the discussion so far, I am not the only one who has come up with the truth I hold. Many good Christians have come up with the same doctrine. Wesley and others came up with the same doctrine just using the Bible!

SAYS YOU: "You will not find another active LDS that will agree with you, although I know that's not important to you presently. But shouldn't it be? What about your active LDS family members, or even me?"

ME: I don't require agreement with me. I just encourage all to honestly read the Book of Mormon. You would be surprised at the reaction Book of Mormon principles call forth when I teach them at Church. Of course, I stay away from the plan of salvation on Sunday. I know you cannot pour new wine in old bottles.

SAYS YOU: "[Other churches] they will never be the chosen vehicle to bring forth the Book of Mormon, nor effectively spread the Good News throughout the world as this Church is doing. Why? Because this is the chosen vessel of the restoration."

ME: The Church has failed to bring forth the Book of Mormon. Just look at Quora! Those knuckleheads attack the Book and they don't even know what's in it. Look at even members, to whom it is written! They reject it in lieu of the doctrines of Living Oracles. I often tell my wife as she rises that the Book of Mormon is an unknown book! Sure, the Church has placed the Book in millions of hands. That does not mean the Book has come forth yet.

No. We await the "choice seer" that will bring it forth. It is all explained in 2 Nephi 3 and 30. Let us leave that alone here.

SAYS YOU: "God prepared the Book of Mormon to be brought forth and translated by pure inspiration by a young man"

ME: Total agreement on this.

SAYS YOU: "This is really where I believe we differ. You don't look to far past the immediate concepts of Salvation by following His teachings"

ME: Yikes! We have gone back and forth regarding the concepts of salvation. That is an area that we have explored energetically. We can (and I propose) stick exclusively to "Christian concepts to live by". The Book of Mormon excels in those. I am not a one trick pony, ya know. One may think so by the concentration we have applied to the subject. I perceive that you are not benefited by our discussions on this topic and you even intimated that you are weakened. I think we should leave the subject and cover all the other wonderful teachings and touch only on the specifics of the plan of salvation as related thereto.

You obviously would be surprised at the multitude of spiritual experiences and striving that I have every single day. Although isolated, I have gone out of my way to influence individual lives for the better.

SAYS YOU: "Do you not see the attached importance between our focuses? Of course you do."

ME: You misjudged my focus simply by assuming it is the only thing I speak of TO YOU. Let us move on to other subjects. It will be edifying!

SAYS YOU: "Judge not, that ye be not judged…Who are you to question God's plan of salvation as regards murderous, rapists individuals? We certainly do like them nor respect them but our Heavenly Father loves them just as much as He loves us."

ME: I don't question. I accept the plain and precious presentation as found in the Book of Mormon. Murderers and rapists are clearly booted from the Kingdom of God, or else the Kingdom would be filthy.

1 Corinthians 6

9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21

7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22

14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

But these are the very characters whom you place in Kingdom of God!! How did this happen?

The Prophet wrote: “Upon my return from Amherst [Ohio] conference, I resumed the translation of the Scriptures. From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home must include more kingdoms than one. Accordingly, on the 16th of February, 1832, while translating St. John’s Gospel, myself and Elder Rigdon saw the following vision....

Section 76, The Vision of the Degrees of Glory

Doctrine and Covenants 76

15. For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows--

16. Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17. And shall come forth; they who have done good in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

18. Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.

Joseph and Sidney were editing the Bible and they came across John 5

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Had they not been treating the Book of Mormon and Bible so lightly (Doctrine and Covenants 84:54-5), they would not have marveled because this is the very teaching of Jesus among the Nephites.

3 Nephi 26

4. And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil--

5. If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

Instead, they looked beyond the mark, thought they had a better idea and so God sent the lying spirit you referenced above. Joseph and Sidney were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, ...and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

And so they put liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie in a glorified state in the Kingdom of God!

Doctrine and Covenants 76

98. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99. For these are they who ...received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

103. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

SAYS YOU: "Who are you to question God's plan of salvation as regards murderous, rapists individuals?"

ME: I don't have to question. I just accept the book of Mormon and Bible over the opposing doctrines of the Living Oracles.

SAYS YOU: "you have to rely on other Christian writers like [Wesley]"

ME: I don't. I enjoy reading his material. I listen to his sermons and, like I do with your Living Oracles, I search the scriptures to see if those things are so. You may be interested that Wesley was one of three spirits who appeared to Pres. Woodruff (Columbus and Ben Franklin being the other two) in the temple to have their "work" done for them.

SAYS YOU: "As you admit, the vast majority of Mormons readily disagree with you and write you off as recalcitrant and lost and unwilling to be taught or chastened by the Lord."

ME: Unfortunately, the vast majority of Mormons readily disagree with the Book of Mormon and Bible. I suppose that bothers me.

Anyway, enough for now.

Lets have discussions that are more edifying to the both of us.