Grace and Justice

SAYS YOU: "You never responded."

ME: I fear that either I don't understand how Quora works or we are misusing it. I know that I have made every effort to respond to all of your questions. All of the things which appear to you to have been ignored have been answered by me. I am afraid that I don't see all that your have written and you do not see all that I have. I recall breaking down the answers to several of your questions into separate "replies" because I thought that would be more clear and that you can respond to the separate nuggets apart from distractions. However, when I viewed the thread, all of those divisions were collapsed! Agh! I suspect you didn't see any of those.

I assure you my respect, admiration and gratitude to you knows no bounds and I would do nothing intentionally to have you believe otherwise. You give me a banquet of food for thought and I appreciate every stroke of your keyboard. I try to pursue all of your links and I have even spent many hours (and tears) trying to understand the early Church Fathers, especially Iranious and Origen. I even responded regarding your wonderful book of Hard Questions. Apparently, you have never seen any of that and I have no idea how to find past comments for to supply links to verify my efforts to you.

SAYS YOU: "Please avoid sarcasm as well. It’s not respectful. Otherwise, we should discontinue our discussion."

ME: I was shocked and dismayed on reading this. I wasn't sure, nor am I yet, to what you referred. I suspect it was regarding Astorath. Rather than being disrespectful, I was hoping to illustrate how dangerous it is to disconnect from the written word of God. Once one leaves the moorings of scripture and presents new doctrine not found in or contradicted by passages in the Book of Mormon and Bible, there are absolutely no limits. Those limits to which I refer are set in the Book of Mormon and the Bible (2 Nephi 3:12). There is nothing that cannot be confirmed by those two books (test kits?) that should be accepted as essential. If those two books confirm any teaching, we should accept it. If the new teaching isn't in those books then those teachings are probably personal, though well-considered, opinions that may be correct or not, but can be safely ignored. Those teachings that contradict those two books must be rejected.

That was my sorry attempt to illustrate that principle that, on consideration, may have seemed disrespectful. I employed hyperbole where maybe I should not have.

SAYS YOU: "Did you understand what I explained about the 30, 60, 100-fold? Do you see it as compatible with Matthew 13? with the Book of Mormon?" ..."explain the 30-fold, 60-fold and hundredfold to me"

ME: I thought I complimented you on the clear explanation of your beliefs ("Now that was a great and clear exposition of your position."). I think, however, that the clarity convinced me that the explanation does neither conform to Matthew nor the Book of Mormon. Here are my considerations that you may not have seen. I will begin with and end in asterisks in the event you have, indeed, read them and so can scroll to the end:

******
You seem to find the parable of the sower to be absolute proof that there are three degrees of glory. Here are a few reasons why the thirty fold, sixty fold and hundred fold cannot mean what you think.

I would be able to prove that there are 4 degrees using your logic. Maybe more.
One kingdom would be those who reject the word altogether (seeds by wayside)

Another kingdom of those who rejoiced in the gospel, but got chocked by worldly stuff (Among thorns)

Another kingdom for those who didn't make it through trials and tribulations (among rocks)

So far, we have tree kingdoms.

Then we have three more that are represented by the thirty fold, sixty fold and the hundred fold.

So, that makes six kingdoms. That is a lot closer to your sometimes inspired (sometimes not when he disagrees with you) Iranieus who believed there were seven, but we certainly don't see three kingdoms.

If we group those by the wayside, the rocks, and the thorns together into one, well, then we have 4 kingdoms.

Well, maybe the kingdom with the losers isn't in a kingdom. But according to the LDSaints, those losers wind up in the Telestial Kingdom. But that would put the losers in the thirty fold group. Certainly that can’t be the case. Losers tossed in with 30-fold producers? So why separate them in the parable?

Fact is, there is nothing about kingdoms here at all.

Lets say that this is a key doctrine, the whole purpose of the parable. Yikes, then we have a problem. Luke gives us the parable thus:

Luke 8

5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That oh-so-important doctrine of degrees of glory was completely not mentioned. Jesus goes on to explain who those are who produce hundredfold:

15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Jesus is teaching that there are two outcomes. One for those who having heard the word, keep it and the other those who don't. This is consistent with the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

*****

SAYS YOU: "Explain to me why believing God has provided degrees of glory in heaven based on the laws we have chosen to obey is dangerous to my salvation. "

ME: I don't think I ever intimated as much. I believe that the judgement will not be a theological exam or a doctrinal test. I have no doubt that you will be/are saved in the Kingdom of God. You believe in Jesus as your savior and that puts you in his presence. There are humble followers of Christ that "are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men" (2 Nephi 28:14). These are those (all of us, it seems) who are "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness" by apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The important thing is that "we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". This certainly does not mean that we agree on all “disputable matters” or “doubtful disputations”. (Romans 14:1). We know only in part, like looking thru a glass darkly. A quick read through Romans 14 will show you that you can disagree without losing the unity of the faith.

All churches are corrupt (not evil, mind you) because they, just as yours, are led by imperfect men. Humble followers of Christ nevertheless "press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men" (2 Nephi 31:20) and do so with "with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of [their] sins, witnessing unto the Father that [they] are willing to take upon [them] the name of Christ, by baptism" (2 Nephi 31:13). That seems to be you. That is also me.

Joseph Smith, in the first account of several "First Vision" renditions, came to the conclusion that all churches were corrupt. He worried about the state of his soul, but didn't know where to turn. He prayed for his soul and Jesus appeared and told him that his faith saved him. Addressing his fretting that all churches were corrupt, Jesus acknowledged it but basically told him not to worry about that because he was coming quickly.

That is the simple message of the first "First Vision". That is the message of the Book of Mormon. That is my message as well.

Humble followers can be and are found in every corrupt church. The organization, with few exceptions doesn’t matter. We are warned against those who claim to be the only true church:

2 Nephi 28:3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--

The only issue to consider is the guilt of holding or promoting an idea that, in your heart of hearts, do not believe.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

SAYS YOU: "explain the 30-fold, 60-fold and hundredfold to me"

ME: There are certainly "degrees" of reward and punishment (beaten with few/many stripes, more tolerable in the day of judgement, etc) but the "levels" occur in the two (2) final states.

Lets talk about those who receive the resurrection of the righteous. These are those who have built their lives on the foundation of Jesus. Considering we are referring to those who have built on Christ, view:

1 Corinthians 3

11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now IF ANY MAN BUILD UPON THIS FOUNDATION gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble [30/60/100];
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [30/60/100]
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

As Jesus says, these are the hundred fold, those "...on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience". They are built of the Foundation, whether 30, 60, or 100. Christ.

Jesus went to prepare a place, singular, and humble followers are all taken there despite our sorry work. What saves us is the foundation that we built on, not the quality of our work. If anything, this is the significance of the 30, 60, 100. That is, we are saved in the Kingdom despite the amount of our produce as long as our foundation is Christ. We all receive a penny at the end of the day. However, those called to give an account will realize that they, in fact, have nothing to pay; not 30, 60, nor 100. "And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both." (Luke 7:42). These are those who come before the righteous Judge "with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save". (2 Nephi 31:19). These know that "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Faith in Christ is the sole deciding factor. Not works of 30/60/100.

2 Nephi 2:9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved, whether 30/60/100.

Now, there will be some who "imagine to [themselves] that [they] hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto [them], in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth" (Alma 5:16). These are the people who think they can actually produce 100-fold and rest confidently that this “earns” them salvation. Alma has a warning for those types: "I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins" [whether 30/60/100] (Alma 5:21). One is either "cleaned from ALL stain", or they aren't. That doesn't come from degrees of righteousness. There is no “somewhat clean” nor “just a little filthy”. It comes from faith in Jesus. One is completely pure from all stain or not. Wheat or chaff. Good fish or bad. Wise or foolish. Right hand or left. Sheep or Goats. Faith in Jesus is the line that separates those 100% forgiven from those who will suffer 100% justice. "...the justice of God did also divide the wicked [ wayside, stones, thorns] from the righteous" [30/60/100] [two groups] (1 Nephi 15:30)

1 Nephi 15:35 And there is a place (singular) prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God [30/60/100], or to be cast out [wayside, stones, thorns] because of that justice of which I have spoken. [two groups]

Jacob 6:10 And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye [wayside, stones, thorns] must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.

Even God cannot deny justice! Mosiah 15:27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such [wayside, stones, thorns]; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, NEITHER CAN THE LORD REDEEM SUCH; FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF; FOR HE CANNOT DENY JUSTICE when it has its claim.

Alma 12:18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they [wayside, stones, thorns] cannot be redeemed according to God's justice;

The whole concept of intercession is that Jesus stands between us and justice. Jesus is the dividing line between the sheep [30/60/100] and the goats [wayside, stones, thorns]. He divides those who receive mercy because of grace and those in the "grasp of justice" (Alma 42:14).

Mosiah 15:9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; STANDING BETWIXT THEM [30/60/100] AND JUSTICE; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

The humble followers of Christ have no fear of justice, not even the being divided up and separated into Kingdoms (which would be a form of justice).

I shared a few citations out of many that could have been put here. I did that to demonstrate that these concepts are consistently taught in the Book of Mormon and not just (as I have been accused of misusing) citations of obscure verses (how can a verse be obscure in a 500 page book is beyond me). I know a multitude of verses can become noisome.

In conclusion,"degrees of glory" doctrines are confounded by the Book of Mormon and Bible. Clearly it doesn't matter who teaches such doctrine whether inconsistent ancients or imperfect moderns. Grace versus justice is confirmed by both books.

But remember my observation above (somewhere in this thread) that we learned that the theology of the Book of Mormon is completely different and irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Living Oracles. I am fine with that. All churches are corrupt, led by imperfect men. When you respond to the Book of Mormon with "yeah, but the Church teaches..." we both know the reason why. I think we both accept that idea of two plans.
________

Lest you think I ignored your content in the concepts that begin with the paragraph that starts with “Have you tried to understand the explanation of the parable….” that was the most convoluted explanation. It is so full of holes, speculations, opinions, Church fathers and Doctrine and Covenants that apparently no doctrine of degrees of glory, after all, can be established from the parable.

SAYS YOU: "I believe the Lord divided the seeds initially into 2 groups of 3. The first group of 3 does not accept the gospel or endure in faith. The second group of 3 are those who accept the gospel in this life, but some are more valiant than others."

ME: Oh man! Two groups! We may be coming to an agreement!!

SAYS YOU: "The early Christians thought they only obeyed some of the commandments. Perhaps some paid a full tithe and some didn’t. I can’t tell you what the difference will be. The Lord will judge."

ME: I don't know what early Christians you are referring to, but a real early one wrote "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all". James 2:10

SAYS YOU: "The way it is explained by Jesus, the first group of three are those who either don’t accept the gospel or fall away. These will go to Spirit Prison after death."

ME: So that is one group. The chaff. There is no spirit prison. There is outer darkness.

Alma 40:11–3

Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection…the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise….
And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked…shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth…

SAYS YOU: "Some may later inherit a degree of glory"

ME: This is where you go off the rails. This Life is the time to prepare. This is the probation. If one dies rejecting the seed, choking it with cares of the world or letting it burn up in trials, there is no fixing that after death.

1 Nephi 15

...the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the WORKS WHICH WERE DONE BY THE TEMPORAL BODY IN THEIR DAYS OF PROBATION.
Wherefore, if they should DIE IN THEIR WICKEDNESS THEY MUST BE CAST OFF also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that THEY CANNOT DWELL IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

They aren't glorified. Rather they go to a place called hell and that is their final state. That final place is determined when they die in their sins. It can't be more clear.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

Mosiah 2:38-9 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

Mosiah 15:26-7 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.

Moroni 10:26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

There are many more references, but if the above doesn't convince, 30 more will not.

SAYS YOU: "they may not be in the first resurrection."

ME: They WILL not. I repeat:

Mosiah 15:26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.

SAYS YOU: "What I’m saying is the 30-fold are not necessarily telestial and the 60-fold are not necessarily terrestrial."

ME: And so it comes to this. You began trying to prove the three Kingdoms of Glory but admit that it really doesn't teach that. What a mess. Better to stick with the Bible and Book of Mormon.