Illustrations
SAYS YOU: "I cite the Church Fathers where the confirm LDS doctrine"
ME: Picking and choosing. You could probably find references to LDS doctrine in Marcus Aurelius, Luther, Wesley and Calvin. What does that prove? That those guys were inspired? Were they reliably inspired? Would you reject the teachings of the Living Oracles where the Apostolic fathers disagreed? I think not. Picking and choosing through the writings of those even unrecognized, if not condemned as heretics in apostasy, by your church is a dangerous practice. Heck, you are even warned that words of your own Living Oracles are to be taken with a grain of salt.
Elder Christofferson: “It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church.”
Elder Andersen: “It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk.”
I have shared only a few, yet a confirming number, of references in both the Book of Mormon and Bible to demonstrate there are two only places where we can be assigned for eternity. You can reject those so that you can believe a doctrine that is "hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk" of some Apostolic Father as proof. You just have to realize that you are drinking from broken cisterns and rejecting plain and precious truths (needed correction because of apostate fathers) restored through the Book of Mormon.
Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
Illustrations
I know we have hashed out 1 Corinthians 15 in detail. But I will enter the discussion again from a different angle so that maybe someone may come across the following. Lets start with the verses:
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The Question and Answer
So, we see that Paul was asked a question posed by someone he calls a fool: How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
His answer? It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
He made it clear that he was talking about the material composition of a resurrected body. That is the answer to the question he was asked. This is what Jesus hinted at when he said "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39). It is made clear in the plain and precious Book of Mormon in regards to the three Nephites who were "were cleansed from mortality to immortality" (3 Nephi 28:36). But there would be a greater change at the judgement: "And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father" (3 Nephi 28:40). The body is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
That is the whole of the teachings of Paul.
Reducing to the Absurd
Where Sidney Rigdon and Joseph (1) got confused as they dictated Section 76 was in being caught up in Paul's visual aids. This is a problem that can be experienced by anyone. I see it all the time. Let me illustrate how this can happen.
Resurrected as Animals
Jesus said that when He judges, he will separate the sheep from the goats. Getting caught up in the teaching technique, one can conclude that we will actually be resurrected as either sheep or as goats. Literal Sheep. Literal goats. You can surely see how one can come to peculiar and absurd conclusions. "But", says I, "I can prove that we will literally be sheep in heaven". So having this idea in my head, I go about picking and choosing through my sources. "Didn't David confirm this when he wrote 'THE LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters'? Certainly we will be sheep in the pastures that he is preparing for us when he said he was going to prepare a place for us? Why else would David say pastures are being prepared for us? Who are happy in pastures? Sheep!"
You can see that, once we take an illustration used to teach a main question and base a religion on the analogy we go far astray. All analogies break down when pushed to extremes. Lets be goofy and take Paul’s two analogies (animal flesh and planets) to the point of absurdity.
Different Flesh in the Resurrection
"[T]here is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds...So also is the resurrection of the dead".
So we see that there will be a variety of fleshy material in the resurrection. Some of us will have hairy beast flesh, some will have scales and some will have feathers. There! We now see how people will be distinguished depending on which of the kingdoms they are assigned. Feathers, obviously, are the top tier because we see that God has wings: Ruth 2:12 "The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust". Yet, both the good and the bad will have scales and will be fish-like: Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away".
I made this absurd (hyperbolic) on purpose to illustrate, as clear as I can, that one cannot derive doctrine from an illustration of a principle. I hope that the following exploration will be seen in this light.
Orbs in the Resurrection
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
I pause to point out that here he sticks to the two (2) distinctions, Celestial (items in the sky) and Terrestrial (items on earth).
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
So, it looks like we are going to be orbs in the resurrection. We will either be Stars (Suns….the sun is a star) or Moons. One or the other. We may be orbs in a distant place (that's why they look smaller than the star that is near), and the distant one will be a lot bigger and more glorious that the star we currently circle, but we will be orbs none the less. Those of us orbs that will be moons will not give off light. Our brightness is only apparent glowing, for our light is only reflecting light from our more heavenly orb brothers. But in the end, Paul was right! We are either 1) moon orbs or 2) star orbs. That is exactly what Jesus taught!
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
John taught that, even though we will be orbs, the glory of God will outshine us in heaven. We still will not be needed whether we are sun orbs or moon orbs:
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Doctrines from Illustrations
As the honest can see, many errors can be made by coming up with a doctrine and then going about to prove that doctrine by selecting verses that confirm our bias. The greatest danger is stringing together mere illustrations, analogies that attempt to help finite minds to understand the infinite. I can prove, in this manner, that we are going to be plants, literal wheat or trees ("he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water" [Psalm 1:3])!
Paul’s Answer Summed Up
Paul was asked how bodies are raised. His answer is that the resurrected body is different from the mortal body. That is it. Sorry. We should not be fools (Paul’s word).
The Sower
It takes an active and darkened imagination to understand the Parable of the Sower to mean that there are three degrees of glory in accordance with some Celestial, Terretrial and Telestial Kingdoms. There are two outcomes illustrated in the parable; those who are on good ground and those and less than ideal ground. Two. If LDS doctrine is correct, than the three types that aren't on good ground would be in the Telestial Kingdom with those who produced 30 fold. But Jesus clearly makes the distinction between the producers and the non-producers.
Jesus clearly taught there would be but two types, as explained somewhere above:
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The Book of Mormon confirms this:
Mosiah 16:11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation--
You can quote ancient fathers, Greek philosophers, the Talmud, the arm of flesh of any stripe or your own fancy. I will listen, as the Bereans, who received what is said and then search the scriptures daily to see if those things are so. The Scriptures. The Law and the Testimony. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20).
That is why Jesus was fond of saying,refering us to the Law and Testimony, “have ye never read”?, “Have ye not read what David did”?, “Did ye never read in the scriptures”?, “touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God”?, “have ye not read this scripture”, “have ye not read in the book of Moses”, “Have ye not read so much as this”, “they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day”, “And have ye not read this scripture”, “Search the scriptures”, “Hath not the scripture said”, ”it is written”, And, finally,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Next to the Living Oracles, these things that Jesus loved and promoted may be nothing to you. Fine. But make sure you consider this:
Mormon 8:33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
Is damnation a little harsh for transfiguring the Word of God? It would be too harsh for the false god who is nothing but love and mercy, and to whom justice means nothing. We are specifically warned against transfiguring the words of Paul (1 Corinthians 15?), by Peter:
[O]ur beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Note:
1. “Joseph would, at intervals, say: ‘What do I see?’ as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, ‘I see the same.’ Presently Sidney would say ‘what do I see?’ and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, ‘I see the same.’
Section 76, The Vision of the Degrees of Glory