Hey my friend, I always appreciate spending time and having this discussion with you. And I am sorry that other Latter-day Saints you have met called you such horrid names, I don't think that's polite or kind. I always believe that if I want others to respect me and my beliefs, I must respect them and their beliefs.
Anyways, YOU SAID: “Many will believe that there are people, specially the heathen on the isles of the sea, will not be invited in life. Worse, LDSaints believe all among the Christian nations and churches are not invited! These later have to take care of business in the spirit world because they didn't get invited here. We can see how unfortunate that idea is, for it is contrary to the above citation. Worse, they have built the entire "work for the dead", which almost seems like the premiere doctrine these days, on the assumption that most people will not be invited by the Good Shepherd in the day of probation. Even worse, they believe, as you cited, that the work for the dead goes beyond just ignorance and lack of invitation, but to actual rebels and who die enemies to God!”
MY RESPONSE: I believe the Church believe that all are invited to come unto Christ, EVERYONE! If mainstream Christianity reject the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ taught my His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in this day of probation, they will perish and I doubt they will be given a second chance when they are in the spirit prison. I would like to reiterate that the Latter-day Saints who had passed away, who enter into spirit paradise, will preach the Gospel only to those who have not heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their day of probation. Those who wilfully reject His Gospel in their day of probation, receive not such a privilege.
YOU SAID: Now, you might believe that he doesn't belong to the true church. You would be wrong. Doctrine and Covenants 10 was written by someone with the Book of Mormon open while they still believed the "these things" contained therein.
Then you quoted D&C 10:64–70
MY RESPONSE: Let's focus on verses 67, shall we?
It says, “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.”
I would like you to focus on the words that Jesus said, “cometh unto me", if someone truly come unto Christ, he will be part of His Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
If someone were to come unto Christ wholeheartedly, he will be led to His Church, and become part of His Church. This Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Why? Because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are filled with people who truly come unto Christ, or rather, those who remain in the Church truly did come unto Christ.
YOU SAID: “But what about false doctrine taught in the corner church he attends? Christianity, as seen above, is not a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. There will be humble followers of Jesus who will be theological messes. They are still humble followers of Christ"
MY RESPONSE: Yes, Christianity isn't a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. However, Christ has shown us THE WAY, for He is THE WAY. He has established His Church, His doctrine, and His Gospel, and has appointed His Prophets and Apostles to lead and guide His Church. If people from mainstream Christianity truly are indeed followers of Christ, when Christ led them to His Church, did they become part of it eagerly and joyfully, NO THEY DID NO SUCH THING! They oppose the Church and try to the best of their ability to lead astray countless faithful disciples of Christ. Therefore, I don't see them as true followers of Christ, unless they are teachable and willing to allow Christ to lead and guide them in their faith journey.
YOU SAID: “One can learn charity even in churches that have horrendous doctrine. I bet you know many non-member loving people like that"
MY RESPONSE: Definitely, I believe that many good values are taught in churches in mainstream Christianity, not just charity. And I do know of non-member loving people like that, you are right! I believe that every religion teaches man how to be good, not just within Christianity itself.
YOU SAID: “These are the ones that Moroni 8 refers to. They don't need baptism because they are ignorant of the principle. But, where little is given (and little is given) little is required). This does not mean that they can live profligate lives. They must still hearken to the voice of the Good Shepherd. But without the complete law, they are a law unto themselves and are blessed and rebuked by the light of Christ in the form of their conscience.”
MY RESPONSE: Moroni 8 teaches that little children need no baptism, for they do not know good from evil like we do. It is not referring to people that knew not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible and the Book of Mormon has repeated time and time again that baptism is required, Jesus even declared the need for baptism in order to be saved in His doctrine.
Also, I did not say that those who knew not the commandments of the Lord or the Gospel of Jesus Christ cannot receive blessings from God. They can if they continue to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd and let the light of Christ lead them to do good continually. In fact, if they can maintain doing good continually for the rest of their lives, it would actually prepare them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ when it is preached to them in the spirit world. And they would be more than willing to accept.
YOU SAID: “Here you have instructions to slaves. Their circumstances allow them freedom to do almost nothing. But they have one command; obey their masters. Nothing else was required. They couldn't pay tithes and offerings for they owned nothing. They couldn't go on missions for they couldn't leave the estate. The master wouldn't let them get baptized because that was a token of submitting to a god, not the master. They couldn't learn to read and right. They couldn't obey the sabbath. They would not be accountable for any of those laws if they obeyed the master with singleness of heart while fearing God.
Would you require of them baptism? The Lord does not. Baptism is unto them who are capable of repenting.”
MY RESPONSE: Baptism is still required in this case. Baptism is not just for a remission of sins, it also signifies that, in this case, the slaves belong to Christ and is part of His Church. Remission of sins is also necessary, because man do make mistakes and sin, even if they were under no law, they can still commit sin by doing or saying things that goes against their conscience. Thus, they will have the opportunity to receive the ordinance of baptism once they accept the Gospel in the spirit world. They don't have to worry.
I really like how President Joseph Fielding Smith puts it, he says,
"We are taught that we will be punished for our own sins, but what of these millions who sinned ignorantly, not having any knowledge of the mission of the Son of God? According to the divine plan the truth of the gospel must eventually be declared to them, for it is written that '... the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.' (DC 1:2)
"...We are taught that mankind through the ages will be judged by the privileges and opportunities to know the truth. If a person never had the opportunity to know anything about the plan of salvation, then surely he should not be held accountable for his deeds in the flesh on an equality with the man who knew the truth and then refused to obey it. Thousands of these people who lived in this ignorance were devout and faithful to the doctrines which they had been taught. They cannot be held accountable for their actions which were done in faith and obedience to that which they devoutly believed and had been taught.
"Fortunately the Lord will judge us all by the intent of the heart as well as by our understanding. Therefore it seems that it was only a matter of justice for the Lord to do what Abinadi said he would do and permit these who innocently died in 'their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them' to have part in this great resurrection.”
YOU SAID: “I have no idea how someone can believe that after death all of a sudden the one who was evil in this life will all of a sudden become of a different spirit and ready humbly to be informed. I also fail to see if wickedness never is happiness "shall be restored from sin to happiness" in some kind of Telestial Kingdom where they will be happy beyond all imagination.”
MY RESPONSE: I do agree with you that someone who is wicked in the day of probation cannot all of a sudden become humbly to be informed after death. That's not possible. For example, a man would lives his life in a wicked and vile manner, after death, will continue with his wicked ways in the spirit prison.
Also, as for telestial kingdom, The Lord has described those who will inherit the telestial kingdom.
Those who profess to follow Christ or the prophets but willfully reject the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant will inherit the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:99–101).
The inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will include those who were murderers, liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers?—in general, the wicked people of the earth (see D&C 76:103; Revelation 22:15). These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory.
YOU SAID: “This never says the Gospel will be preached to the wicked dead. It could very well mean that those who lived righteous lives in ignorance will have the details of the plan of salvation explained in an instant. Time is only measured unto man.”
MY RESPONSE: That's what I've been trying to explain, the Gospel never will be preached to the wicked dead, only those who have not receive or heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the day of probation can receive such preaching of the Gospel unto them.
YOU SAID: “"or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" so they were told the truth by prophets, but rejected the truth. The Church teaches that these "will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent" contrary to your assertion. You should brush up on Church teachings"
MY RESPONSE: My assertion is in line with what the Church teaches. Please read the following excerpt from Topical Guide on the Spirit World:
“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them EITHER ON EARTH OR IN THE SPIRIT PRISON. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.”
I will stop writing for now due to the lack of time. I will continue on tomorrow. Feel free to comment, we can always discuss further.
This is a continuation to my previous comment. Read my previous comment first before reading this one.
YOU SAID: “"died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth". How can they sin if they didn't have knowledge of the law? 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. If they didn't know the law, they could not transgress it. If they sinned in ignorance, they are covered by the atonement.”
MY RESPONSE: I would safely assume that “died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth" refers to the fact that some people, although where not under the law and are without a knowledge of the truth, they are given free agency, they have the light of Christ with them in the form of their own conscience. When they go against their own conscience, they sin, because they are not influenced by the light of Chirst, they instead go against the light of Christ, therefore they are influenced by the devil in doing horrid and wicked deeds that goes against their conscience.
YOU SAID: “Repent for what? They can't sin in ignorance. Baptism is the first fruits of Repentance. If you can't get past the repent part, yuo can't advance to the baptism part! (Review Moroni 8)”
MY RESPONSE: They repent for the wickedness they have done while in the day of probation. Whether you are under the law or not, man still has their agency, to do good or to do evil. If they do evil despite knowing that what they are doing is wrong through their own conscience or through their own cultural beliefs or teachings, has committed sin. As simple as that. Lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, are types of sin, whether under the law or not, the fact remains, it's still a sin.
YOU SAID: “I reject the Doctrines and Covenants for that and other reasons. Massive "altering of the words written and gone forth is another good reason to suspect that book.”
MY RESPONSE: If you look at the following excerpt, you would know why D&C was altered and changed to the way it is now.:
B. H. Roberts faithfully attributed noble motives to the late and abundant revisions, when he suggested “Some of the early revelations first published in the Book of Commandments in 1833 were revised by the Prophet himself in the way of correcting errors made by the scribes and publishers.” [3] Other Church material blamed its critics for “apparently misunderstanding the process of revelation and the principle of ‘precept upon precept’ that the Lord applied as he continued to give new understanding to the Saints.”
To conclude:
How did you come up with the name Mooseifer, because I thought it sounded like Lucifer, if you as me.
Anyways, to me, Ray, you were never delusional or heretical, you are a wise man. I just believe that we interpret the scriptures differently and that's perfectly okay! Although I am not as smart as you are, or as well versed with the Book of Mormon as you are, or done as much research as you have done, but I have my reasons for believing in what the Church teaches and I'm sure you have many convincing reasons to disbelief in the Church. You are a great friend! We can definitely continue our discussions, whether on Quora or anywhere else, if you don't mind.
Also, can you please teach me your way of studying the scriptures, will you? I'm interested in finding out more!
What kind of Book of Mormon are you using? It looks different from the one the Church provides?