This rhetoric sets itself up as a lone, sole, self imposed judge and juror plying generalizations that to those of us making genuine self actualized efforts to seek God and know His wisdom for us, find deeply insulting.
If he wasn’t a prophet, than the Church of J___ C___ of Latter-day Saints is not the only true church.
You know I love and respect you. That you feel it necessary to constantly publicly denigrate and insult something I hold so dear after 35 years of many similar experiences as yours though not nearly as extensive in a number of ways, offends me. Your averrances regarding us “MORMONS” fails to make the teaching points you desire because you are quite effectively “slapping the church silly”!
I would like to believe you do this with sincere intent to uplift and raise people to the another level of righteousness. Unfortunately all you accomplish is to make us staunch defenders angry!
You push so hard, any love you may have for us is lost in the constant, criticisms.
I suggest emerging from the rut of pat answers.
Again, I understand where you are coming from, it is where you are going to I am not so sure of.
First, if you expected our prophets to be perfect and without errors, you are sadly mistaken. From old to new, prophets are imperfect individuals called by God to fulfill some specific purpose.
IMPERFECT SOULS!
That you set yourself up as judge and juror in what is to you a fait accompli, and because of your scriptural Paper Chases, you have set yourself as a self possessed prophet, seer and revelator criticizing us at will.
Why don't you see that you have chosen to be the sole person on the face of the earth to fly against the prophets and this Church as so vehemently stating how the entire church obviously needs to be fake because of what you read in the Bible AND THE BOOK OF MORMON which you so swimmingly state as the most correct book regarding the Lord and Savior.
Geez, Louise, let me get this straight. You aver that the Book of Mormon is true but the Mormon church is not. That Joseph Smith was a called gifted translator but that is it. That all the other good Godly, God fearing men are false prophets.
That the burgeoning world wide membership is the vehicle of the restoration as prophesied of old is just a fallacy, in your educated very well read opinion.
That there are excellent Christians in all of the over 43,000 Christian churches, is absolutely true. But you aver that any of them could have been the church of this time to bring the message of Book of Mormon to the four corners of the earth!
What you sadly miss in your distaste for this church is that THERE ARE OVER 43,000 CHRISTIAN CHURCHES THAT CAN BARELY AGREE ON WHAT CHRISTIANITY ACTUALLY IS! How do you pick one to do what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has done since the mid 1800s?
One other very important point you seem to miss completely…
Do you know how many very intelligent, high level thinkers, self actuated, highly independent, highly motivated, leaders, physicians, CEOs, CFOs, High level scientists, deeply religious, well read in their own right, STILL BELIEVE IN THIS CHURCH!
Do you ever stop to wonder is it really you that is 100% certain that you are the sole arbiter of truth, the sole individual on the face of this earth that believes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon and dismisses the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price as useless lies, yet there are the 15 apostles, the 70s, the Area Representatives, the Stake leaders, the Ward leaders, and the many Captains of industry that fully believe in this Church and ALL THAT WE DO, AND TEACH. MILLIONS OF HIGHLY EDUCATED PEOPLE, ALL WITH Moroni's Challenge long obtained and decades behind them, living thus Gospel 24/7, working tirelessly to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the world as it is intended to be.
You are capable of constructing literary scripture based masterpieces, so cogently averred and magnificently crafted. Very pursuasive and beautifully constructed.
What you are not going to want to hear, is that your intertwined talking points leading to the final answer are not as solidly constructed conclusions/opinions as to not be as convincing as you may believe they are. On more than one occasion after reading through your lengthy heavily scripture laden answer, I don't agree with your opinion regarding some subset of determination while you are building your case for your truth.
By their fruits ye shall know them!
What other church has grown like this church? What other Christian group has been so successful.
Finally, on any number of occasion I sit and wonder why a man with your brilliant legal mind fails to see that okay, you are a disgruntled Mormon. That there is over 16 million Mormons worldwide that are happy with their choices, where is the understanding that they can't all be wrong and only you are right.
When did God abdicate and put you in charge, solely you, and only you wholly in charge of the truth? So help you God…
Says Gary
Oh boy. That was some thrashing! I will respond to a few points. To respond to all would take time I do not have.
SAYS YOU: "you set yourself up as judge and juror"
ME: This is so odd. All I do is respond to questions like everyone else here on Quora.
SAYS YOU: "any love you may have for us is lost"
ME: I have charity towards all. I even like you.
SAYS YOU: "if you expected our prophets to be perfect and without errors, you are sadly mistaken"
ME: Nope. I never expect perfection. I only expect truth.
SAYS YOU: "you have set yourself as a self possessed prophet, seer and revelator criticizing us at will"
ME: Serious? I answer questions and base them on scriptures.
SAYS YOU: "you have chosen to be the sole person on the face of the earth to fly against the prophets and this Church"
ME: There seems to be a pattern developing here. All I do is respond here on Quora.
SAYS YOU: "entire church obviously needs to be fake because of what you read in the Bible AND THE BOOK OF MORMON"
ME: No. Me reading the scriptures does not make the Church fake.
SAYS YOU: "Let me get this straight. You aver that the Book of Mormon is true but the Mormon church is not. That Joseph Smith was a called gifted translator but that is it. That all the other good Godly, God fearing men are false prophets."
ME: Great! I have, indeed, made myself clear.
SAYS YOU: "Burgeoning world wide membership"
ME: Ah! The numbers game! The size of membership has nothing to do with truthfullness, and you know it. There are more Catholics and Mulsims than LDSaints. What would you have me conclude? "wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in therea".
SAYS YOU: "the restoration as prophesied of old is just a fallacy"
ME: Where is that prophesied? Look, read your own Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Mormon was to come forth not to destroy His Church, but to build it up. That's right. His Church was to be enhanced by the Book of Mormon. It was there. I will quote from D&C 10.
45. Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel;
The Book of Mormon is the Gospel that the Book of Mormon saints prayed would come foth unto us, the Lamanites and those who live upon this land.
46. And, behold, all the remainder of this work does contain all those parts of my gospel which my holy prophets, yea, and also my disciples, desired in their prayers should come forth unto this people.
47. And I said unto them, that it should be granted unto them according to their faith in their prayers;
48. Yea, and this was their faith--that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.
49. Now, this is not all--their faith in their prayers was that this gospel should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess this land;
50. And thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel in this land might have eternal life;
"This Gospel". The Gospel taught in the Book of Mormon. This Gospel was to build up his church that was here already.
Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 9, Page 26
12 Now this is not all, their faith in their prayers were, that this gospel should be made known also, if it were possible that other nations should possess this land; and thus they did leave a blessing upon this land in their prayers, that whosoever should believe in this gospel, in this land, might have eternal life, yea, that it might be free unto all whatsoever nation, kindred, tongue, or people, they may be.
13 And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers, WILL I BRING THIS PART OF MY GOSPEL TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF MY PEOPLE. BEHOLD, I DO NOT BRING IT TO DESTROY THAT WHICH THEY HAVE RECEIVED, BUT TO BUILD IT UP.
14 And for this cause have I said, if this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them. NOW I DO NOT SAY THIS TO DESTROY MY CHURCH, BUT I SAY THIS TO BUILD UP MY CHURCH, THEREFORE, WHOSOEVER BELONGETH TO MY CHURCH NEED NOT FEAR, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven: but it is they who do not fear me, neither keep my commandments, but buildeth up churches unto themselves, to get gain; yea, and all those that do wickedly, and buildeth up the kingdom of the devil; yea, verily, verily I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the centre.
Two things to note:
His people and church were preexistant to the printing of the Book of Mormon. Pre-Book of Mormon churches were not to be destroyed but to be built up. And who belonged to this church?
Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 9, Page 27
17 Behold this is my doctrine: whosoever repenteth, and cometh unto me, the same is my church: whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me: therefore, he is not of my church.
The second thing to note is that the Book of Mormon is to disturb, and cause the church of the devil to tremble and shake to the centre. All I do is point out what the Book of Mormon says. You seem to despise my extensive use of the Book of Mormon in my answers. To quote you, "all you accomplish is to make us staunch defenders angry!" Fine! I will quote the Book of Commanments. But the Book of Commandments warn you not to declare more or less of what is in the Book of Mormon makes you not of Him but against Him!
SAYS YOU: "to bring the message of Book of Mormon to the four corners of the earth"
ME: Well, the Church of J___ C___ of Latter-day Saints has failed miserably here. They place the Book of Mormon everywhere but then teach a different message, rejecting the plain and precious parts.
SAYS YOU: "What you sadly miss in your distaste for this church is that THERE ARE OVER 43,000 CHRISTIAN CHURCHES THAT CAN BARELY AGREE ON WHAT CHRISTIANITY ACTUALLY IS!"
ME: Yep. And the LDSaints is one of them. What's the point?
SAYS YOU: "Do you know how many very intelligent, high level thinkers, self actuated, highly independent, highly motivated, leaders, physicians, CEOs, CFOs, High level scientists, deeply religious, well read in their own right, STILL BELIEVE IN THIS CHURCH!"
ME: Do you know how many very intelligent, high level thinkers, self actuated, highly independent, highly motivated, leaders, physicians, CEOs, CFOs, High level scientists, deeply religious, well read in their own right, Belong to all the various churches. so what's the point?
SAYS YOU: "Do you ever stop to wonder is it really you that is 100% certain that you are the sole arbiter of truth, the sole individual on the face of this earth that believes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon..."
ME: Again, I just respond to questions on Quora. I make no claims nor attempt more than provide my personal, though well considered opinion, like your living oracles.
SAYS YOU: "..dismisses the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price as useless lies"
ME: I can teach the gospel out of those books, as you have seen above. I dismiss them, but you don't.
SAYS YOU: "You are capable of constructing literary scripture based masterpieces, so cogently averred and magnificently crafted. Very pursuasive and beautifully constructed."
ME: Thank you.
SAYS YOU: "intertwined talking points leading to the final answer are not as solidly constructed conclusions/opinions as to not be as convincing as you may believe they are"
ME: Well, I am not here to convince. Just declare. I am a witness, not a lawyer.
SAYS YOU: "reading through your lengthy heavily scripture laden answer, I don't agree with your opinion regarding some subset of determination while you are building your case"
ME: Yet you never point to a scripture and tell me where I am wrong. You just tell me what the Church teaches, which I know.
SAYS YOU: "What other church has grown like this church? What other Christian group has been so successful."
ME: Catholics. Muslims. Salvation Army.
SAYS YOU: "I sit and wonder why a man with your brilliant legal mind fails to see that okay, you are a disgruntled Mormon"
ME: Because I am not. I am glad I had my "Mormon" expereince. It was an incubator of sorts. I just grew out of it.
SAYS YOU: "That there is over 16 million Mormons worldwide that are happy with their choices"
ME: that is a very generous number. My nose is still counted among thos millions and I bet there are millions just like me. Can those millions all be wrong?
SAYS YOU: "where is the understanding that they can't all be wrong and only you are right."
ME: That was Joseph Smith's conclusion! I guess it is possible!
SAYS YOU: "When did God abdicate and put you in charge, solely you, and only you wholly in charge of the truth?"
ME: You crack me up.