Discussion on voice
For Latter-day Saints, what is the value of studying and reading the Book of Mormon on a daily basis?
Unless exhausted from the day before, I generally wake between 4a and 6a to study the Book of Mormon. You may think that is a bit fanatical, but you should know the rest of the story beofre you judge how fanatical that really is.
I do not believe in the Church. I used to. However, a careful look at the doctrines of Salvation presented in the Book of Mormon will convince someone who does so with an open mind that the doctrine of the Church is not only different from the Book of Mormon but directly contradictory, as if it were written to warn LDSaints. I relate this to convince you that I don't study the Book of Mormon for the purpose to be known as some great scholar when I meet among the LDSaints. If I were to share my discoveries with LDSaints I would be considered an heretic so I, when compelled to be among them, keep my mouth shut and mourn for them.
On the other hand, I meet with some saints down the road that call themselves the Church of the Nazarene. If they were to put aside initial prejudices against the Book of Mormon, which come from mistakenly assuming that LDSaints get their odd doctrine therefrom, they would find themselves in almost total agreement with the doctrines put forth in the Book of Mormon. However, among them I share nothing directly from the Book of Mormon by chapter and verse, though I share the doctrines of the Book and the things I have come to understand. I just don't reference the Book of Mormon.
So, why am I writing this? Why do I study the Book of Mormon so intensely? It is 100% personal.
Reading the Book of Mormon is interactive. The Holy Ghost breaths into my heart as I read, ponder and pray. I am able to breath back gratitude and question. This back and forth takes place in the hours that I am engaged. Sometimes I am enlightened, sometimes rebuked, sometimes just comforted and filled again with ever increasing hope and joy.
Nobody cares about any of my spiritual experiences with the Book of Mormon, but that matters to me not at all.
I understand the following:
Ether 12:39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;
The LDSaints can reject the doctrines and the things taught in that book and the rest of the world can scoff and trample it for all me. That Book is mine.
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Justin Koh
· Mon
Hey my friend, I'm a Latter-day Saint, and I hope you don't mind me leaving this genuine comment to your statement. I am really concerned as to the welfare of your soul, because judging by your statement it sounds rather heretical, even to the point of sounding delusional, with all due respect. It's not my intention to accuse you of anything but I want you to understand the severity and the seriousness of the things that you are saying.
I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the Lord's Church, teaches doctrines and teachings that are aligned with the Book of Mormon. I was genuinely shocked to hear someone say that the Church's teachings don't align with the Book of Mormon, because I don't see any misalignment or new theologies or doctrines being formed that are inconsistent to scriptures, of course, that is if you agree or accept that the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are considered scripture.
I am concerned also that, I assume, you don't have a community or people supporting you in your faith, who have the same belief as you do. Because if you lack a community to support your faith, it is easy for you to lose it, and that is the same for any religion anyone chooses to believe in.
If you think my above statements and observations are wrong, I'm more than willing to speak more about it with you, or if you think there are any inconsistencies between what is taught in the Book of Mormon and what the Church teaches, feel free to tell me what they are so we can discuss it further if you want to.
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Ray Farmer
· Mon
SAYS YOU: "...if you agree or accept that the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are considered scripture."
ME: The Book of Moses and early, unedited, sections of the Book of Commandments seem to have been written by someone whose understanding of the principles of the Book of Mormon were fresh in the mind or written with the Book of Mormon open and before Joseph claimed to be a prophet and invented contrary doctrine. They shouldn't be relied upon as scripture, however. The Book of Mormon teaches that there are but two books that should be consulted to establish doctrine.
2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write [Book of Mormon]; and the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible] shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins [Book of Mormon], and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah [Bible], shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
That there are only two books that must be consulted when confirmed with new doctrine is a familiar concept among LDSaints. Consider the oft quoted Ezekiel 37:
16. Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17. And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19. Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
How many "sticks" do you count. As in the Book of Mormon, there are only two.
How does one use the two books? We find the method in Acts 17:
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
We see that the Bereans received the word without resistance, then check out to see if the concepts conformed to the Word of God. Isaiah (also quoted in the Book of Mormon this) warns against peepers and mutterers:
Isaiah 8
19. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Even the Doctrine and Covenants promotes these two Books!
Doctrine and Covenants 42:12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.
SAYS YOU: "I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the Lord's Church, teaches doctrines and teachings that are aligned with the Book of Mormon. I was genuinely shocked to hear someone say that the Church's teachings don't align with the Book of Mormon"
ME: You seem to be willing to discuss the contradictions. There are so many that it seems that the Book of Mormon was written to warn LDSaints saints against the doctrines they love most! That's why Moroni's promise says
Moroni 10:3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them....
It is not in God's wisdom that everyone gets the Book of Mormon. Significantly, it is, for the most part, LDSaints that carry the book about and claim to believe in it. The conclusion is that it is the LDSaints that need to read and believe "these things". Strangely, they believe the book but reject the things written on the pages! The Book of Mormon distinguishes between the two because it anticipates everything.
2 Nephi 27:12 ....three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of THE BOOK and THE THINGS THEREIN.
LDSaints say the Book is true and go on to say that its truthfulness testifies that Joseph was a prophet. So they believe the book. They do not believe the things therein that confound the doctrine of Joseph and Sidney.
Some examples I will put forth. Anyone of them can be a springboard to our impending discussions.
Temple Work and the Book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon is aggressive in confounding all concepts involved in the LDS Temples.
You say people can repent after death. the Book of Mormon clearly confounds this idea.
Alma 34
30. And now, my brethren, I would that, after ye have received so many witnesses, seeing that the holy scriptures testify of these things, ye come forth and bring fruit unto repentance.
31. Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the FINAL STATE of the wicked.
This seems to confound the whole idea behind temple work. The Lord tweaks temple-worshipers in the very next verse, specifically identifying the real temples!
Alma 34:36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell...
The Book of Mormon is amazing and complete!
1 Nephi 15
32. ...the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body IN THEIR DAYS OF PROBATION.
33. Wherefore, IF THEY SHOULD DIE IN THEIR WICKEDNESS they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34. ....FINAL STATE of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and DIETH IN HIS SINS, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
Alma 12:16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that WHOSOEVER DIETH IN HIS SINS, AS TO A TEMPORAL DEATH, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.
Alma 12:24 ....this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.
There are a multitude of teachings that confirm the idea that this life, this temporal moment is the day of probation. Eternal reward or punishment is determined at death. There is no moving from spirit prison (not in scriptures) to paradise in the time between death and resurrection.
Alma 40
13. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil--for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house--and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
[Not much of a spirit school. Sound awful]
14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus THEY REMAIN IN THIS STATE, AS WELL AS THE RIGHTEOUS IN PARADISE, UNTIL THE TIME OF THEIR RESURRECTION.
Alma 40:21 ....there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery UNTIL the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
Moroni 10:34 [Moroni is not leaving paradise to preach repentance to the wicked] And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite...
We know that in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, Abraham states
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Even the Doctrine and Covenants 38
4. I am the same which have taken the Zion of Enoch into mine own bosom; and verily, I say, even as many as have believed in my name, for I am Christ, and in mine own name, by the virtue of the blood which I have spilt, have I pleaded before the Father for them.
5. But behold, the residue of THE WICKED HAVE I KEPT IN CHAINS OF DARKNESS UNTIL the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;
6. And even so will I cause THE WICKED TO BE KEPT, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom.
Related to the temple (and there is much) you say those who die without the law need to be baptized. Mormon hits hard against this.
Moroni 8
22. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also ALL THEY THAT ARE WITHOUT THE LAW. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and UNTO SUCH BAPTISM AVAILETH NOTHING--
23. But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24. Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25. And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
Obviously those who didn't have the Gospel can't repent. Repentance comes before baptism. Since those who die in ignorance are not under the curse of a broken law can't repent and, therefore, can't meet the requirements of baptism.
You call it "work for the dead". Mormon calls it "dead works"! He also calls it "mockery before God", "this gross error", "solemn mockery before God". To him who believes the ignorant "need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell".
The Lord expounds "His Gospel" three times between 3 Nephi 11:30 "...Behold, this is not my doctrine.. and 3 Nephi 11:39 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine". Clearly the LDSaint doctrines of necessary salvation requirements are not between these verses. There is no temple attendance requirement, priesthoods, oaths and covenants, eternal marriages, new names, signs and tokens to pass angels. Read it yourself and see. What you will find, though, is a warning to you about adding stuff to the simple doctrine He puts forth:
3 Nephi 11
39. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40. And whoso shall DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
You say we must "stand in Holy Places", meaning the temple. Just as the Lord tweaked you by using "dead works" and "temples" are the hearts of the righteous, He gets you again when discussing the Zoromites who required attendance at a certain place.
Alma 31:21 Now the PLACE was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the HOLY STAND.
These are just a few of the "anti-mormon" teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding temples. A book can be written about the temple and the Book of Mormon to include views of oaths and covenants, elegant sanctuaries, etc.
We can get into divine authority, the sacrament, and, most interesting, degrees of glory and multiple kingdom rewards as foreign and contradictory to the Book of Mormon.
You pick.
SAYS YOU: "I am concerned also that, I assume, you don't have a community or people supporting you in your faith"
ME: Join me! All joking aside, you will read in the scriptures a grand multitude of folks who were alone in their faith and yet maintained it.
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Justin Koh
· Tue
My friend, I would that you refer to of the Bible and the Book of Mormon which do testify of the need for temples and baptism for the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:29,
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
John 3:5,
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"
Of this criticism, Harold B. Lee said:
Now, our scoffers say, "How can you say that the Book of Mormon has the fulness of the gospel when it doesn't speak of baptism for the dead?" Some of you may have asked that question.
What is the gospel as it is defined? Let me give you how the Lord defines the gospel, in these words: "And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (DC 39:5-6
.)
Wherever you have a restoration of the gospel, where those fundamental ordinances and the power of the Holy Ghost are among men, there you have the power by which the Lord can reveal all things that pertain to the kingdom in detail, don't you see, including baptism for the dead, which He has done in our day. That is what the Prophet Joseph Smith meant when he was questioned, "How does your church differ from all the other churches?" and his answer was simple, "We are different from all the other churches because we have the Holy Ghost." (See History of the Church 4:42.) Therein we have the teachings of the fulness of those essentials in the Book of Mormon upon the foundations of which the kingdom of God is established.[2]
BYU professor Noel Reynolds wrote:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is not synonymous with the plan of salvation (or plan of redemption), but is a key part thereof. Brigham Young stated that the 'Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son.' While the plan of salvation is what God and Christ have done for mortals in the creation, the fall, the atonement, the final judgment, and the salvation of the world, the gospel contains the instructions--the laws and ordinances--that enable human beings to make the atonement effective in their lives and thereby gain salvation.[3]
In 3 Nephi 11:33–34, Jesus declares His doctrine,
“And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.”
Now what does Jesus mean by this?
When Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved, this makes baptism a crucial element in terms of salvation. However, those who aren't baptized can't be saved, so how are you going to ensure that those who had died can be saved. That is whan baptism for the dead comes in.
When Jesus say, “whoso believeth in me", I think it would be fair to say that it means that whoever has faith in Him. Now what is faith? Faith not only includes inward faith but also how our faith translates into actions, whereby faith is exemplified by works. Now what are these works? These works are what is commanded by God, be it through scriptures or through His mouthpieces, the prophets and apostles of the Church.
So, if I've heard you correctly, you believe that the prophets of the Lord of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are false and teach contrary to the Book of Mormon. If that's the case, there would therefore be no prophet on Earth.
However, if you look at Amos 3:7, it says
“Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
Are you claiming that God is doing nothing?
Teachings that are not included in the Book of Mormon should not be seen as falsehoods or untruths, as there is ongoing revelation. Not everything has been revealed to us, there are many things that are yet to be revealed and there are also many things that we can't comprehend or understand as of the moment.
Also, in the Bible, it talks about the spirit prison in 1 Peter 3:18–19, which says,
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”
I really do hope that you read what I've written, and pray about it. Because I'm truly concerned for the welfare of your soul. Take your time and digest what I've written here and we will talk more about it.
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Ray Farmer
· Tue
SAYS YOU: "Take your time and digest what I've written here"
ME: Sadly, you have not extended to me the same consideration that you would require of me. However, I assure you that I have spent years digesting what you have written. I served a mission in Italy, taught seminary and institute for years and have considered and taught your beliefs for they were mine for decades.
By your reply I see that you have missed or ignored the plain and precious parts of my comment which are:
a. This life is our day of probation.
b. We must not die in our sins. If we do we cannot repent after death.
c. Baptism is for those under the law. If one has not the law, baptism availeth nothing.
d. All precepts are to be considered as to whether they conform to the Bible and the Book of Mormon...two books. This is especially true when men and women claim new revelation.
I have gone out of my way to demonstrate this comparison using the Book of Mormon to confound false doctrine, specifically temple work for the dead.
If you missed these points, go back and read them again before proceeding with the following. I will not make the case again and subject you to further tedium.
SAYS YOU: "the Bible and the Book of Mormon which do testify of the need for temples and baptism for the dead"
ME: I think I have demonstrated that they, in fact, teach against these concepts. Temple work assumes that the day of probation lasts until the judgement, that one may repent and accept baptism after death and that baptism and a host of other oaths, covenants and ordinances are required, which can be done vicariously. But lets consider your texts that you believe teach temples and baptism for the dead.
YOU CITED: John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"
You assume being "born of water" means baptism. There is no basis for this interpretation. We have to come to the waters and be transformed, but your citation does not say baptism at all. Consider this alternate interpretation:
1 Nephi 11:25 .... the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God...
Ether 8:26 ...come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.
Ether 12:28 ....faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me--the fountain of all righteousness.
YOU CITED: Harold B. Lee.
ME: That quote is a hot mess. He asks "What is the gospel as it is defined?" and goes on with a series of assertions. Yet the Lord clearly, in three places, defines His Gospel doctrine. In one instruction He warns not to add or take away from stated definition!
2 Nephi 31:2 > 21
Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ..[Gospel expounded]...behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
3 Nephi 11:31 > 39
Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.....[Gospel expounded]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine...
3 Nephi 27:13 > 21
Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you.....[Gospel expounded]...Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel...
For the most part, the above can be summerized by DC 39:5-6 as Lee indicates:
And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
Now you or Lee can go ahead and declare more or less at will, but you are warned:
3 Nephi 11:40-1 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.
Professor Noel Reynolds and his B.Y. citation strikes at the heart of Christianity propounding that laws and ordinances make the atonement effective in our lives, that through laws and ordinances we gain salvation. Rather, there is something else that makes the atonement effective.
Matthew 25:34-6 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Those things are essential and cannot be done vicariously. Indeed, once we leave our bodies behind, we can’t even do them ourselves in the spirit world where none will be hungry or thirsty or naked. This is work for the Mortal Probation period
SAYS YOU: "When Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved, this makes baptism a crucial element in terms of salvation. However, those who aren't baptized can't be saved,"
ME: Jesus never taught that all must be baptized. As I wrote in a previous comment, infants need no baptism and those without the law don't need baptism. Go back and read that part. Here is a chart I made that demonstrates who needs baptism and who doesn't.
We will cover baptism for the dead later.
Works
SAYS YOU: "works are what is commanded by God, be it through scriptures or through His mouthpieces, the prophets and apostles of the Church."
ME: Nephi tells us how we are to know what "to do". Read again (and again) 2 Nephi 31-2:
Follow Jesus' Example
2 Nephi 31:17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me,
3 Nephi 27:21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
Feast On Words Of Christ
2 Nephi 32:3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
Obey the Holy Ghost
2 Nephi 32:5 ....receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
Personal Revelation
2 Nephi 32:6 ....And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.
Sorry. Nephi doesn't tell you to consult Living Oracles; no mouthpieces, prophets nor apostles of the Church. When those mouthpieces tell you to do something in the Church that you didn't see Jesus do, than take that as a warning. Jesus didn't do the temple nor baptisms for the dead. Do you see him doing that anywhere in the scriptures?
SAYS YOU: "you believe that the prophets of the Lord of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are false and teach contrary to the Book of Mormon. If that's the case, there would therefore be no prophet on Earth."
ME: Those guys or no guys? That is kinda narrow, don't you think? There are and always have been people prophesying. Look at King Ben's regular ol' people:
2. ...the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.3. And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.
You say God does nothing expect He tells the prophets. Because I don't believe your prophets you think I believe God is doing nothing. Yet, you believe prophets are a result of a restoration after a long period of apostasy where there were no prophets. Was God doing nothing during the "dark ages"? We know he was bringing gentile saints to the new world by his spiritual influence. Or could it be that He has revealed everything expedient through the prophets in the Book of Mormon and Bible? Were there prophets with authority in the days of Columbus? Yet, through prophets the Lord told us that this would happen.
SAYS YOU: "Teachings that are not included in the Book of Mormon should not be seen as falsehoods or untruths, as there is ongoing revelation. "
ME: All teachings must be scrutinized by how they are confirmed by the Book of Mormon and Bible, the two sticks. This was covered in my initial comment (please review). People may say some wonderful things that are true. They may say wonderful things that are false or are personal, though well-considered, opinions. The Book of Mormon and the Bible will aid us in winnowing them out. If the precepts are confirmed in the two sticks, the words are true no matter who speaks them. If they are contradicted by the sticks, we must reject and decry them. If they are neither confirmed or denied by the two sticks, the precept might be true or might be false, but which ever they can be disregarded as unimportant nor essential to salvation. That is my rule. Example. If someone told me Mars was inhabited by invisible Quakers, I could neither confirm nor deny the belief and so it doesn't matter. Not everything has been revealed to us, but what has been is true.
Baptism for the Dead
SAYS YOU: "Jesus said that all must be baptized in order to be saved"
ME: Please refer to my handy flow chart on baptism above. This statement is false.
YOU CITED: 1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
ME: If Paul wrote "why are WE then baptized for the dead", maybe one could accept the doctrine. But who are the "THEY" in the verse that Paul was pointing to? They were those among the saints who didn't believe in the resurrection and yet were baptizing for their dead folks! Apostates. They were those miserable people who believed that hope in Christ is only for this life!
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Corinthians 15:32 ... if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
We see that "they" were apostates.
Spirits in Prison
You partially cited Peter. That was unwise because you have to read the whole concept, not just the "Come Follow Me" edited edition.
1 Peter 3
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
First, it doesn't say anything about sending righteous dead elders to preach in the prison. It says HE went. And He didn't go to the rebellious and wicked.
Doctrine and Covenants 138
20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22. Where these were, darkness reigned...
So he didn't go to the so-called prison. He preached to a certain set of good people who died while waiting of Jesus accomplish the atonement, or as Peter put it "while the ark was a preparing". These are good people who kept the commandments and the law of Moses or at least the light of Christ. The Book of Mormon talks about these people.
Mosiah 15
21. And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN, AND WHO ARE, AND WHO SHALL BE, EVEN UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST--for so shall he be called.
22. And now, the resurrection of all THE PROPHETS, AND ALL THOSE THAT HAVE BELIEVED IN THEIR WORDS, or all those that have KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.
23. They are raised to dwell with God WHO HAS REDEEMED THEM; thus THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Christ, who has broken the bands of death.
24. And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are THEY THAT HAVE DIED BEFORE CHRIST CAME, IN THEIR IGNORANCE, NOT HAVING SALVATION DECLARED UNTO THEM. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.
What can be more clear?
Who are those that He doesn't teach in spirit Prison? This is also clear:
Mosiah 15
26. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and DIE IN THEIR SINS; yea, even all those that have PERISHED IN THEIR SINS EVER SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection.
27. Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For SALVATION COMETH TO NONE SUCH; FOR THE LORD HATH REDEEMED NONE SUCH; YEA, NEITHER CAN THE LORD REDEEM SUCH; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim.
They cannot be redeemed. They cannot repent. Baptism cannot save them. They are rebels. Yet you have righteous dead elders teaching those who cannot be redeemed!
Doctrine and Covenants 138
37. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.
How fruitless. "SALVATION COMETH TO NONE SUCH; FOR THE LORD HATH REDEEMED NONE SUCH; YEA, NEITHER CAN THE LORD REDEEM SUCH". those who say they can be saved make God a liar!
Alma 5
20. I say unto you, can ye think of being saved when you have yielded yourselves to become subjects to the devil?
21. I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.
22. And now I ask of you, my brethren, how will any of you feel, if ye shall stand before the bar of God, having your garments stained with blood and all manner of filthiness? Behold, what will these things testify against you?
23. Behold will they not testify that ye are murderers, yea, and also that ye are guilty of all manner of wickedness?
24. Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25. I say unto you, Nay; except YE MAKE OUR CREATOR A LIAR FROM THE BEGINNING, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.
I have to go. I have a new grand daughter this morning. I was hoping to be more thorough..
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Justin Koh
· Tue
Hey my friend, before I go on further, I would want to say that you have given convincing reasons to back up what you have said so far. However, I know that Joseph Smith has been called as a prophet of the Lord, and I believe every word that he has said, especially those which are considered scripture by the Church. Moreover, the Spirit of the Lord has testified to me and others that the Prophets and Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are true. To deny this is to deny the testimony of the Holy Ghost.
We see in John 5:31–32, which says,
“If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.”
What you are saying, although yes, is scripturally sound, but you bear witness of yourself, there is no one that testify of what you say is true. Whereas for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have millions of people bearing witness and tesify that what we believe are true, even the Holy Ghost bears witness of this fact. I've said countless times to people that oppose my faith, that spiritual evidences is more important than physical evidences, what more do I need if the Holy Ghost bears witness of what I believe is true?
Now let's talk about why Baptism of the Dead is not included in the Book of Mormon explicitly
There are several factors which should be considered. There are textual and editorial reasons to suspect that Mormon would not include vicarious ordinances: most of the history predates Christ, and little about Nephite worship after Christ is discussed.
On a more basic level, however, baptism for the dead is not discussed because it is not germane to the Book of Mormon's purpose: to teach the fulness of the gospel, which involves the basics of faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endurance to the end. The readers of the Book of Mormon are promised that they will learn more once they have passed these first steps.
There are additional factors, however, which lead us to suspect that vicarious baptism would not be included in the Nephite record.
#1: Baptism for the dead may not have been preached before Christ
This ordinance of baptism for the dead would perhaps not be practicable prior to the atonement of Christ, for Christ is the one who broke the bands of death and hell and inaugurated the preaching of the Gospel to the Spirit World (see 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:5-6, DC 138:). Since most of the Book of Mormon account precedes the resurrection of Christ, we should perhaps not expect vicarious ordinances to be mentioned prior to 3rd Nephi. Third Nephi is concerned with the teachings of Christ, and Mormon specifically tells us that only the lesser portion of Christ's teachings are recorded (see 3 Nephi 26:8-12). The Book of Ether likewise predates Jesus' resurrection, and so the performance of vicarious ordinances might be premature.
#2: Mormon's abridgement does not tell us much about Nephite worship after Jesus' departure
This leaves only the books of 4th Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni as potential sources for baptism for the dead among the Nephites. It is clear, however, that during this time that Mormon and Moroni were both heavily engaged with an apostate people. Both Mormon and Moroni were teaching repentance to their people, rather than temple ordinances.
This leaves us with only 4th Nephi, about which very little is written other than to say that the people enjoyed almost 200 years of peace. The text tells us nothing about the practices and worship of this period—partly because the record has been created retrospectively. Mormon's goal as editor in 4th Nephi is clearly to illustrate the collapse and ruin of the Nephites because of worldliness and pride. He makes it clear, however, that there were many other things revealed to the Nephites (Mormon 5:16-17).
#3: Some preparatory scripture is included
Though we have no record of Jesus teaching baptism for the dead in 3 Nephi, He did command the inclusion of material from Malachi about the coming of Elijah and hearts turning from the children to the fathers (see 3 Nephi 25:1-6
). This is a classic text for the doctrines of temple work and vicarious ordinances, so this may be a hint that further teachings were given about these matters of which we do not have record, as discussed in point #2 above.
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Ray Farmer
· Wed
SAYS YOU: "What you are saying, although yes, is scripturally sound, but you bear witness of yourself, there is no one that testify of what you say is true."
ME: As you indicated, my points were scriptually sound. The reason is because I purposefully use the Book of Mormon and Bible. The two books testify of each other. I may not be an acceptable witness, but the two I quote extensively from witness To the Gospel of Christ found in the Book of Mormon and Bible.
Mormon 7
8. ....lay hold upon the gospel of Christ, which shall be set before you, not only in this record but also in the record which shall come unto the Gentiles from the Jews, which record shall come from the Gentiles unto you.
9. For behold, this is written for the intent that ye may believe that; and if ye believe that ye will believe this also.
I will repeat, regarding this second witness concept, 2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
1 Nephi 13 is rich with this concept of two witnesses. I edited for brevity, but you can read the whole, which I always encourage.
35. For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious;....these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
36. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.
38. And it came to pass that I beheld ...the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.
39. And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, UNTO THE CONVINCING.....THAT THE RECORDS OF THE PROPHETS AND OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB ARE TRUE. [none of this ‘as far as it is translated stuff]
40. And the angel spake unto me, saying: THESE LAST RECORDS, WHICH THOU HAST SEEN AMONG THE GENTILES, SHALL ESTABLISH THE TRUTH OF THE FIRST, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known....that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
41. And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and THE WORDS OF THE LAMB SHALL BE MADE KNOWN IN THE RECORDS OF THY SEED, AS WELL AS IN THE RECORDS OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
Concluding this discussion on “witnesses”, I will point out that the above consideration is why the Doctrine and Covenants commands using the two books:
Doctrine and Covenants 42:12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.
Sadly, the Doctrine and Covenants is an interesting edit of the Book of Commandments (1833) which says:
Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 44, Page 91
13 And again, the elders, priests, and teachers of this church, shall teach THE SCRIPTURES which are in the bible, and the book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel;
Question: who uses the altering of words that have been written and sent out?
Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written...
So, I am not the witness you are looking for. I just am here to show how the two witnesses testify to the same doctrine.
SAYS YOU: "There are additional factors, however, which lead us to suspect that vicarious baptism would not be included in the Nephite record."
ME: All of your factors can be used to "prove" the worship of the Madonna, the Holy Virgin Mother or the existence of invisible Quakers on Mars. If you can argue from ignorance you can prove anything. Be that as it may, most of the Book of Mormon was written after the coming of Christ by someone who saw our day.
Lets, in that light, consider Doctrine and Covenants 128:15
15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.
If Mormon believed that work for the dead was essential to our own salvation and Temple work was practiced among his people, he would have included all kinds of information related. He saw our day and the foolish doctrines those who carried his book believed and included everything needed to warn us. Those doctrines he included make up the bulk of my previous comment.
SAYS YOU: "On a more basic level, however, baptism for the dead is not discussed because it is not germane to the Book of Mormon's purpose "
ME: The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to teach the fulness of the Gospel or, as Mormon himself put it, "the true points of his doctrine”.
3 Nephi 21
3. Verily, verily, I say unto you, when THESE THINGS shall be made known unto them...
4. ...that THESE THINGS might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed...
6. ...THAT [here comes the purpose] THEY MAY repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of THE TRUE POINTS OF MY DOCTRINE...
"These things" are the doctrines found in the Book of Mormon. "These things" are different from the Book of Mormon itself. Most Latter-day saints believe the Book of Mormon but reject the "these things". Believing that the Book of Mormon is a product of Joseph Smith so he must be a prophet is not the same thing as reading the doctrine and praying about "these things" written therein. How many believe the Book of Mormon as a concept itself because Joseph Smith, they believe, is a prophet, but have never read it!
2 Nephi 27:12 ....the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of THE BOOK and THE THINGS THEREIN.
Moroni's promise is not about praying if the Book is true. You encourage people to pray about the Book. They should be reading, pondering and praying about the "these things" or the true points of [His} doctrine. Look at Moroni's promise in this light:
1. Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I WRITE unto my brethren...
2. And I seal up THESE RECORDS....
3. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read THESE THINGS, if it be wisdom in God that ye should READ THEM, .....ye shall receive THESE THINGS, and ponder it in your hearts.
4. And when ye shall receive THESE THINGS, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if THESE THINGS are not true;
Nephi, who also saw our day, writes :
1 Nephi 6:4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
1 Nephi 15:13-4, regarding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon,
....then shall the fulness of the gospel [Book of Mormon and Bible] of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed-- And at that day...shall THEY KNOW AND COME TO ...THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GOSPEL OF THEIR REDEEMER, WHICH WAS MINISTERED UNTO THEIR FATHERS [Nephite prophets] BY HIM; wherefore, they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer and THE VERY POINTS OF HIS DOCTRINE, THAT THEY MAY KNOW HOW TO COME UNTO HIM AND BE SAVED.
Certainly if work for the dead was practiced as something essential to personal salvation, and we needed to know how to come unto him to be saved, there should be at least a hint. Nothing. Only warnings.
SAYS YOU: "...Malachi about the coming of Elijah and hearts turning from the children to the fathers (see 3 Nephi 25:1-60). This is a classic text for the doctrines of temple work and vicarious ordinances,"
ME: This whole way of looking at Malachi is a hot mess.
Jesus quotes Malachi thus:
3 Nephi 25:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Yet, in the D&C it is different!
Doctrine and Covenants 2:2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
Back again in Doctrine and Covenants 110:15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse--
Yet, in the 1838 version of the First Vision, Joseph Smith--History 1:39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.
How someone can take this verse and run down the road called "Work for the Dead" is beyond me. It seems more in one version to be saying that the generation gap will be remedied. Another version seems to be saying the promises that God made to the Fathers will be put into the hearts of the children and the children’s hearts shall turn towards those holy men of old who were preachers and righteous.
1 Nephi 17:40 And he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Behold, he loved OUR FATHERS, and he covenanted with them, yea, EVEN ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB; and he remembered the covenants which he had made;
1 Nephi 22:6 ....these things of which are spoken are temporal; for thus are the covenants of the Lord with our fathers;
2 Nephi 3:7 ...he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.
2 Nephi 3:12 ...bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days...
2 Nephi 10:7 ...When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers...
2 Nephi 11:5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers;
2 Nephi 30:5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
2 Nephi 33:4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers;
Enos 1:14 For at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith. And they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers.
I could go on, but if you want to pursue this "fathers" topic in the Book of Mormon farther, you can look up:
Enos 1:18, Jarom 1:2, Jarom 1:9, Jarom 1:15, Omni 1:3, Omni 1:6, Omni 1:9, Omni 1:18, Omni 1:22, Words of Mormon 1:4, Mosiah 1:2, Mosiah 1:5, Mosiah 1:6, Mosiah 1:7, Mosiah 1:13, Mosiah 1:14, Mosiah 1:16, Mosiah 2:35, Mosiah 4:14, Mosiah 7:9, Mosiah 7:20, Mosiah 7:21, Mosiah 9:1, Mosiah 9:3, Mosiah 9:4, Mosiah 9:17, Mosiah 10:3, Mosiah 10:12, Mosiah 12:20, Mosiah 13:13, Mosiah 25:12, Mosiah 26:1, Mosiah 27:16, Mosiah 27:30, Mosiah 28:2, Mosiah 29:15, Mosiah 29:25, Alma 2:25, Alma 3:6, Alma 3:11, Alma 5:6, Alma 5:13, Alma 5:21, Alma 5:44, Alma 5:47, Alma 6:8, Alma 7:10, Alma 9:8, Alma 9:10, Alma 9:16, Alma 9:17, Alma 13:26, Alma 17:9, Alma 17:15, Alma 18:4, Alma 18:37, Alma 20:13, Alma 21:1, Alma 21:8, Alma 21:17, Alma 22:9, Alma 22:28, Alma 23:3, Alma 24:7, Alma 25:6, Alma 26:24, Alma 28:5, Alma 29:11, Alma 29:12, Alma 30:14, Alma 30:16, Alma 30:23, Alma 30:27, Alma 30:31, Alma 31:16, Alma 36:2, Alma 36:28, Alma 36:29, Alma 37:3, Alma 37:4, Alma 37:9, Alma 37:17, Alma 37:38, Alma 37:39, Alma 37:43, Alma 37:44, Alma 37:45, Alma 37:46, Alma 43:46, Alma 50:38, Alma 54:17, Alma 54:23, Alma 56:6, Alma 56:27, Alma 56:47, Alma 58:31, Alma 60:20, Alma 60:32, Helaman 3:30, Helaman 5:8, Helaman 5:19, Helaman 5:51, Helaman 8:11, Helaman 8:13, Helaman 8:22, Helaman 13:25, Helaman 15:4, Helaman 15:7, Helaman 15:11, Helaman 15:15, Helaman 16:20, 3 Nephi 1:11, 3 Nephi 5:20, 3 Nephi 10:7, 3 Nephi 20:25, 3 Nephi 20:29, 3 Nephi 24:7, 3 Nephi 25:6, 3 Nephi 26:14, 4 Nephi 1:38, 4 Nephi 1:39, Mormon 5:16, Mormon 6:6, Mormon 6:19, Mormon 6:21, Mormon 7:1, Mormon 7:5, Mormon 7:9, Mormon 8:40, Ether 4:15, Ether 6:30, Ether 7:27, Ether 8:9, Ether 10:2, Ether 11:21, Ether 12:7, Ether 12:22, Moroni 7:26, Moroni 9:8, Moroni 9:25, Moroni 10:23
Fathers in the New Testament
Luke 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;)
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus,
More "Fathers" Acts 7:2, Acts 7:11, Acts 7:12, Acts 7:15, Acts 7:19, Acts 7:32, Acts 7:38, Acts 7:39, Acts 7:44, Acts 7:45, Acts 7:51, Acts 7:52, Acts 13:17, Acts 13:32, Acts 13:36, Acts 15:10, Acts 22:1, Acts 22:3, Acts 22:14, Acts 24:14, Acts 26:6, Acts 28:17, Acts 28:25, Romans 9:5, Romans 11:28, Romans 15:8, 1 Corinthians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 1:14, Ephesians 6:4, Colossians 3:21, 1 Timothy 1:9, 2 Timothy 1:3, Hebrews 1:1, Hebrews 3:9, Hebrews 8:9, Hebrews 12:9, 1 Peter 1:18, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 John 2:13, 1 John 2:14
It certainly doesn't mean a kid will look toward his dead dad and do vicarious work for him in the temple. Rather, the living generation will be turned to the God, the gospel and covenants of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
As fun as this is, this has become too long. I will end with one more important point.
SAYS YOU: "He makes it clear, however, that there were many other things revealed to the Nephites (Mormon 5:16-17)."
ME: He indicated that those things are on the sealed portion and we would get those things after we demonstrate faithfulness to the words of the Book of Mormon and that we would get them through the sealed portion.
3 Nephi 26
6. And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;
7. But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.
8. And THESE THINGS have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.
9. And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10. And if it so be that they will not believe THESE THINGS, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.
11. Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.
We know that in 1832, when section 84 was given, they were treating the Bible and Book of Mormon lightly so were cursed with darkened minds.
Doctrine and Covenants 84
54. And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received--
55. Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written--
58. That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father's kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
Obviously the greater things would not be revealed to them. ET Benson, in 1986, indicated that the church was still under the curse because they were still treating the Book of Mormon lightly up to that day!
Says Ezra Taft Benson "I reaffirm those words to you this day. Let us not remain under condemnation, with its scourge and judgment, by treating lightly this great and marvelous gift the Lord has given to us" (October 1986).
My point is that no greater things have been revealed beyond the Book of Mormon at least until 1986. Temples, Baptism for the Dead, Degrees of Glory, etc were promoted in the time of the curse of darkened minds. Greater things, however, will come from the sealed portion's translation once you and your fellow members stop treating the Book of Mormon so lightly. All the false doctrines created in that dark period will be exposed and confounded when the seal is broken.
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Justin Koh
· Wed
Hey my friend, I would like to refer to 2 Nephi 29:7-9, which says,
“Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever".
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that God speaks to His children on earth wherever and whenever they will listen, that He has done so since the earth was created, and that He will continue to do so always. His work is not yet finished, therefore doctrines are continuing to be revealed to prophets and apostles of the Church, for if the Book of Mormon and the Bible contains all of His doctrine or teachings, God would not need to reveal anymore things or truths to us. Since we know of the concept of continuing and ongoing relevation, there are bound to have teachings and truths that are not taught in the scriptures, are we going to say that they are false? OF COURSE NOT! Because it is like what mainstream Christianity is saying, that why do we need the Book of Mormon when the Bible is sufficient? These continuing and ongoing relevation can be seen most tangibly in the form of Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Another scripture that backs up the concept of continuing and ongoing relevation can be found in 2 Nephi 28:30, which says,
“For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.”
Therefore, the fact that you say that we should rely only on the Book of Mormon and the Bible is false, as it has been refuted by the above verse.
The concept of Scripture Alone or Sola Scriptura, is unfortunately false. One must never only turn to scriptures for guidance or clarity, but also to seek divine relevation through prayer. One must also listen to the people with divine authority and Priesthood on this Earth as well. The Lord established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as His Church for a reason. He chose Joseph Smith as a Prophet for a reason as well. Joseph Smith even translated the Book of Mormon, and to say that he is a false prophet is just shocking.
Furthermore, with all due respect, you are just one man, God can't only save you. You think that you have got the answers and what you believe is right, but is the whole plan of salvation to save you only? Are you going to set up a Church to proselyte to others?
Although you have been really convincing and patient in this discussion we are having, but it is hard to convince me that the belief of just one person is true, unless you are a prophet of the Lord.
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Ray Farmer
· Wed
Malachi 3
16. Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
This verse is about us! (I just teared up!)
SAYS YOU: "I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?"
ME: No matter how much His word is distributed upon the earth, it all will agree with the Bible and Book of Mormon. As illustrated above, those two books are the touchstone to use to test doctrine for the truthfulness. As you quote, "I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another". That's why "the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also".
SAYS YOU: "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?"
ME: You seem shocked by what I put forth here. I bet you never had the Book of Mormon presented to you as I have done. Don't murmur. It is all written there. Just be willing to receive line upon line and precept upon precept. Just because we learn, as individuals, line upon line, doesn't mean the lines have not already been supplied in the text. I know you have read scriptures and have learned something new every time. The precepts have always been there on the page, but you, personally, are learning line upon line and precept upon precept. This, however, does not mean that God is piling more and more precepts and lines. They have all been provided in the Book of Mormon and Bible, as illustrated above. By the guidance of the Holy Ghost, we all just discover those precepts and lines as we progress.
Alma 12
9. And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
As you can see from the above, they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word. This doesn’t not mean that ink disappears from the pages of their scriptures! It just means they don't see and understand. On the other hand, the scriptures of he who is not hardhearted to him is given the greater portion of the word. This does not mean that pages are inserted into his scriptures. It just means that he sees and understands as he receives line upon line.
My constant prayer is Psalms 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
SAYS YOU: "God speaks to His children on earth wherever and whenever they will listen, that He has done so since the earth was created, and that He will continue to do so always."
ME: Ah! I don't believe in the general, great apostasy either!
SAYS YOU: "if the Book of Mormon and the Bible contains all of His doctrine or teachings, God would not need to reveal anymore things or truths to us."
ME: Why do we need more things or truths that are not in the two Books? Regarding the Book of Mormon alone:
1 Nephi 13:36
35. ...these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.
36. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation.
SAYS YOU: "Since we know of the concept of continuing and ongoing revelation, there are bound to have teachings and truths that are not taught in the scriptures, are we going to say that they are false? OF COURSE NOT!"
ME: Here is a parable. I have a pen-pal who lives on Mars. He wants to know about our food. I tell him about oranges. I tell him that they are of a wonder blue color. He decides he is coming for a visit. Yikes. So I tell him that they are not blue but orange and one has to peel them.
This is a concept of continuing revelation. When I tell him that you have to peel them, that is additional revelation. But to go back and change the color description, that is not continuing revelation. It indicates that the initial description was wrong.
If the Book of Mormon teaches
1 Nephi 13:40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; AND THAT ALL MEN MUST COME UNTO HIM, OR THEY CANNOT BE SAVED.
But the Doctrine and Covenants in 76:43 Teaches Jesus "glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands" that is, in my parable, not advancing that oranges must be peeled, but that they aren't blue after all.
consider this: 1 Nephi 14
28. And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
30. ....if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.
Break this down like a picture of a target. The outer ring represents all truth. Nephi didn't see all truth but only a portion. The next inside ring, therfore represents the truth he saw. It is contained in the "all truth" outer ring. But he didn't write all that he saw, but only a small portion of that. This written truth is contained in the truth that he saw which is contained in all truth. What he points out in the above citation that, although he didn't write all truth, what he did write is true.
So fine! Claim additional revelation. If the scriptures speak nothing about your precept, I conclude it may be right or it might be wrong. It might be a part of the "all truth" or at least a part of the truth Nephi saw but didn't write. If I find your precept in the Book of Mormon and Bible, I somewhat assume your revelation or just your teaching is truth and is in line with what Nephi wrote, which is true. However, if the two Books say one thing and your precept teaches the opposite, then I can assume it is false. However, I don't have to worry about "All Truth" and I don't have to worry about truth Nephi saw but didn't write. I do need to be concerned about the words actually written in the Book of Mormon because
2 Nephi 25:22 Wherefore, these things [there's goes the "these things" again!] shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and THE NATIONS WHO SHALL POSSESS THEM SHALL BE JUDGED OF THEM ACCORDING TO THE WORDS WHICH ARE WRITTEN.
SAYS YOU: "unto him that receiveth I will give more"
ME: Besides personal advancement in light and knowledge, we know that more will be given us in the form of the sealed portion when you and your fellow LDSaints stop treating the Book of Mormon so lightly. How can I be so bold as to judge the LDSaints? Well, ask yourself: do you have the words of the sealed portion? Why not?
SAYS YOU: "One must also listen to the people with divine authority and Priesthood on this Earth as well."
ME: Perhaps at some future time we can study the Book of Mormon to understand divine authority. However, I see not instruction in the Book of Mormon or Bible to support your comment. We went over the way we know what to do previously a) Follow Jesus' Example and do the things He did b) Listen to the Holy Ghost c) Feast upon the words of Christ d) follow personal manifestation. See above for references and exposition. There is no counsel to consult Living Oracles since what they teach might be personal, though well-considered opinions.
SAYS YOU: "Joseph Smith even translated the Book of Mormon, and to say that he is a false prophet is just shocking."
ME: Most can't understand how I can believe in the Book of Mormon but reject Joseph as prophet. Joseph was supposed to translate the Book of Mormon and claim no other gifts. He was to be a true translator and the Book of Mormon testifies that he was a true translator. You cannot extend that to mean he was a true prophet.
Invalid: If the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a prophet. If Joseph was a prophet, the Church is true. If the church is true, Nelson is the living Oracle. If Nelson is the Living Oracle, pay your tithing.
Valid: If the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a gifted translator. that’s it.
Instead, look up Book of Commandments (1833), Chapter 4, Page 10
....he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.
Yikes! Well, Joseph saw what this revelation would mean....no gift of prophet, seer, revealtor, healer. What to do? Alter the words he had written! Your Doctrine and Covenants has the edited update:
Doctrine and Covenants 5:4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.
But there is a dire warning to those who alter written words that have gone forth:
Doctrine and Covenants 10:10 And, behold, Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.
So, don't be so shocked. I believe Joseph had the gift to translate the Book of Mormon and that was it. Eight days after the Book of Mormon hit the bookstores, Joseph claimed other gifts. He lost the gift to translate. This explains why he could translate correctly the Book of Mormon but made a mess translating Egyptian scrolls and plates found near Kinderhook! Not to mention the mess that is the JST!!
SAYS YOU: "Furthermore, with all due respect, you are just one man,"
ME: *sigh*
Mosiah 11:20 And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi;
Mosiah 17:2 But there was one among them whose name was Alma....
Alma 19:16 ....they had all fallen to the earth, save it were one of the Lamanitish women, whose name was Abish, she having been converted unto the Lord for many years, on account of a remarkable vision of her father--
Hebrews 11:38 ....they wandered in deserts, and inmountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Luke 17:17-8 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
You are not the first to verbalize this concern:
Alma 9:2 Who art thou? Suppose ye that we shall believe the testimony of one man...
But here is the thing. I am not alone. In fact millions of Christians would agree with me and the Book of Mormon.
I have created a study method that I have employed for years. I think you will agree that it has been very effective. I can share it upon request. But what it has done for me is not to reveal new things, but to weed out doctrines that don't fit the Book of Mormon and Bible. As I have discarded those extraneous doctrines, I find that I am more in accord with many Christians. Most of the doctrines that make LDSaints unique are those that have no bases or are contradicted by the Book of Mormon and Bible.
SAYS YOU: "Are you going to set up a Church to proselyte to others?"
ME: There is and has been from the beginning the Church. There really are only two churches.
1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
There is "church of the Lamb of God". Members of that church are called "the saints of the church of the Lamb". Rather than priesthood authority, they have "the power of the Lamb of God".
1 Nephi 14:14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
For those who argue about the name of the church on Quora make me laugh.
You add all kinds of qualities to identify the True Church (17 point of the true church). But Membership requirements are few and you are warned not to add requirements.
Doctrine and Covenants 10
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
This is confirmed by Jesus who, after declaring his simple doctrine,
39. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
SAYS YOU: "These continuing and ongoing revelation can be seen most tangibly in the form of Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price."
ME: I can easily teach Book of Mormon Doctrine using the Book of Moses and those early sections in the Book of Commandments. Those were all composed with the Book of Mormon open and reflect its doctrine. Once Sidney Rigdon signed up things began and continued to fly off the rails. They closed the Book of Mormon and Bible and began to stumble all over the doctrinal countryside.
LDS author Jana Reiss wrote in the SkyLight Illuminations Series, The Book of Mormon – Selections Annotated and Explained:
Early Mormons rarely quoted from the book in their speeches and writings; in one nineteenth-century LDS periodical, Elders’ Journal, the Bible was cited forty times more often than the Book of Mormon. Although early Mormons believed that the book was an authentically ancient record and that its miraculous appearance signaled that they were living in the “latter days,” they didn’t strongly emphasize its teachings. When the book was cited, it was usually to support the belief that the LDS Church was the restoration of Israel. It wasn’t until 1961 that a year-long course in the Book of Mormon became required for freshman students at Brigham Young University, and it was the 1980’s before the Book of Mormon was cited regularly in General Conference talks by church leaders. (2005, p. xiii)
LDS Professor Grant Hardy said:
Joseph Smith did not refer to passages from the book in his writings or sermons, nor was it cited very often by early church leaders. (Grant Hardy in Royal Skousen ed., The Book of Mormon, the Earliest Text, Yale University Press, 2009, p. xxii)
LDS Professor Richard L. Bushman:
Despite the effort that went into the translation, Joseph Smith did not make the book the foundation of the church. (Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, 1984, p. 142)
LDS Professor Daniel Peterson:
Studies of Latter-day Saint sermons and curriculum from the earliest period of church history well into the 20th century demonstrate surprisingly little use of the Book of Mormon to establish doctrines or as a text from which to preach. Many Saints were converted by reading it, but, thereafter, they tended to overlook its specific content. Joseph seems somewhat detached from the book after its publication.
Now, after years of treating lightly or completely ignoring the Book of Mormon and adiding under the curse of darkened minds, LDSaints are emphasizing it since Ezra Taft Benson's talk "Keystone of our religion". To everyone's dismay who reads and studies the Book, the doctrine of the Church veered away from the doctrine of the Book of Mormon to the point that the doctrines are irreconcilable. so now you read and hear "we believe the Book of Mormon as far as it is translated correctly" or there are imperfections in the Book" or "we don't understand their culture or...". You are subjected to study the “Come Follow Me” plan that carefully takes you around and over those pesky contradictions.
Finally,
Book of Mormon Scholar J.N. Washburn:
The book under consideration bears no necessary relation to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They could exist quite independently of each other. The book is not the product of the Church, for it was in existence before the Church was. (The Contents, Structure and Authorship of the Book of Mormon, 1954, p.10)
Yikes. That was too long (but exciting all the same).
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Justin Koh
· Wed
Hey my friend, just to clarify, when we quoted Moroni 8:22, what do you think the word “law" means in the verse itself?
Also, I thought it would be much easier if you would tell me what your beliefs are as a whole, and what do you consider as scripture, and what is not scripture?
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Ray Farmer
· Thu
SAYS YOU: "tell me what your beliefs are as a whole"
ME: Years ago, I decided to chart the plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon. My approach was to clear my head of any prior beliefs and just go with what the Book clearly teaches. After years of much study and reading and rereading the Book of Mormon and making adjustments until no more adjustment can be made, I have come up with the diagram below (pdf). Not surprisingly, as I read all the scriptures, the Bible besides the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Moses and the early sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, I find that the chart is highly accurate and any scripture can be placed somewhere on the chart.
https://mooseifer.com/quora/SalvationChart_June2022.pdf
You will notice numbers on the chart (not in order because I added and modified concepts, as I explained). My study scriptures, my own publication, has a numbering system that corresponds with the numbers on the chart so that as I study, I can place every teaching where it belongs. Cross-referencing is easy.
Here is a sample page from my edition. It contains chapters that talk about the Plan of Salvation. You can find a list of those chapters on the left side of the chart.
Anyway, my belief system is derived from the Plan of Salvation as found in the Book of Mormon.
I guess the question you ask can be understood by the chart. I can go over any point you may not understand from my diagram. Refer to a number and I will explain it. If you are interested, I could go over the chart number by number. However, if you are familiar with the Book of Mormon you will be familiar with the terms.
Coexistent
One last diagram. One may wonder how my belief system can be so different and yet I attend the Local Ward (obligation to wife) and hold callings (Bishop knows my “apostasy”). Look at this graphic.
In the top graphic, you will see there is an overlap of Bible and Book of Mormon teachings and LDSaint doctrine regarding the plan of Salvation. I stay in the overlap while at the Ward. Fortunately, there is a wider overlap when it comes to the Moral Law (the be nice doctrines) and so it is easier to stick with those topics.
The Law
The law is the “Moral Law”. I would like to go into that more, but it is a holiday and my time is limited.
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Justin Koh
· 23h
Hey my friend, the chart you have created is quite complicated, could you kindly explain to me what it mean?
By the way, what's mooseifer? Sounds weird!
Anyways, what a unique version of the Book of Mormon you got there!
Also, I recently discussed with my LDS mentor about our discussions and he enlightened me on the fact that the Spirit world is talked about in the Book of Mormon and that baptism of the dead is needed, and I will show you why.
The verses you have previously quoted in your previous comments like Alma 34, Mosiah 2:33, Alma 12:16, and Alma 12:24, although confirms the idea that this life, this temporal moment is the day of probation, but Eternal reward or punishment is not determined at death. There is moving from spirit prison to paradise in the time between death and resurrection.
The scripture verses you have quoted, some of which I have stated above, is addressing people who have a chance to repent yet don't. It is not addressing every person who lives. In Alma 34, the final state of the wicked refers to those who "choose" not to repent. If someone was not taught the gospel they cannot "choose" to repent. In the Bible we learn that the gospel is taught to those who are dead.
For it is written in 1 Peter 4:6,
“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
In D&C we learn more about what is taught in the Bible. To say since I was not taught the gospel so I don't need baptism is not accurate. Jesus who was perfect needed baptism.. not for a remission of his sins but to be obedient to the father. Baptism is extended to the dead because they are taught the gospel there. We do proxy baptisms for the dead because they do not have a body (D&C 138)
In D&C 138:32-34 we read more in depth of what the Book of Mormon meant. The people that 1 Nephi 15 addressed were the people who did have the gospel preached to them. In spirit prison, those who have not had a knowledge will now get their chance.
D&C 138:32–34:
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
To conclude, those who reject the Gospel in their day of probation in this temporal world will perish and the Gospel will not be preached to them. However, those who have not heard or receive the Gospel will have a chance to repent and be baptized when the Gospel is preached to them in the Spirit world.
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Ray Farmer
· 2m
Thank you for continuing this most interesting exchange. Usually before the point we have reached LDSaints will have called me ugly names and declared I was a spiritless apostate and broke off the conversation before it got really interesting!
The chart is actually as simple as the Gospel. It looks complicated because it is detailed. I wanted to include all the insights that the book of Mormon puts forth.
Line #3 on the chart covers the topic at hand.
After the fall and after the accountability triangle, we all move down the (#3) line. We all start out carnal, sensual and devilish.
Mosiah 16:3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
Those who are in this state are describe as the natural man, sons of the devil, subject to the devil and part of his fold.
If we persist down line #3 and die in our sins we will be as if there were no redemption.
This is taught clearly in Mosiah 16 and other places:
1. And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.2. And then shall the wicked be cast out (#20), and they shall have cause to howl, and weep, and wail, and gnash their teeth; and this because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord (#6); therefore the Lord redeemeth them not (#18).3. For they are carnal and devilish (#3), and the devil has power over them (#20); yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall (#2); which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish (#3), knowing evil from good (#4), subjecting themselves to the devil.4. Thus all mankind were lost (#3); and behold, they would have been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state (#31).5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature (#3), and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him (#20). Therefore, he is as though there was no redemption made (#18b), being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
All that seems plain and precious. What is key on line #3 is #6. Everyone persisting along #3 hears the voice of the Good Shepherd. Even all.
33. Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men (#6), for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
34. Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely [born of the water];
35. Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness (#28), and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire (#20)--
36. For behold, the time is at hand (#5) that whosoever bringeth forth not good fruit, or whosoever doeth not the works of righteousness (#28), the same have cause to wail and mourn (#16 and #20).
37. O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray (#3), as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you (#6) and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice (#6)!
38. Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you (#6); yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.
39. And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold (#25); and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil (#3).
Here is where one can go astray. Even though Nephi declares
2 Nephi 26:33 ...he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and HE REMEMBERETH THE HEATHEN; and all are alike unto God.
Many will believe that there are people, specially the heathen on the isles of the sea, will not be invited in life. Worse, LDSaints believe all among the Christian nations and churches are not invited! These later have to take care of business in the spirit world because they didn't get invited here. We can see how unfortunate that idea is, for it is contrary to the above citation. Worse, they have built the entire "work for the dead", which almost seems like the premiere doctrine these days, on the assumption that most people will not be invited by the Good Shepherd in the day of probation. Even worse, they believe, as you cited, that the work for the dead goes beyond just ignorance and lack of invitation, but to actual rebels and who die enemies to God!
Mosiah 2: 38. Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
Mosiah 16: 5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God.
He Remembereth the Heathen.
One may ask how a heathen on the Isles of the Sea, in the jungles, is invited. This is critical to the understanding of the gospel to the "ignorant".
We know that everyone comes in contact with "the law".
2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
So, all folks have the law to some extent. They have the light of Christ to help them choose the right. They are "enticed" to choose the right.
2 Nephi 2:16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
Alma 5:41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.
This is an astonishing teaching! Lets say your womanizing, drug dealing neighbor is walking down the street and sees a lost child. Something inside tells him to help the child. That is the light of Christ. He obeys that “voice” and does the good work he was prompted to do. He feels warm inside when he sees the child happy and safely at home. This is the Voice of the Good Shepherd and it is the invitation specifically geared to your neighbor. If he continues to respond in the future, God will continue to lead him toward the truth.
Will he ever get to know all the facts and theology you think is necessary? Maybe, maybe not. But lets say from his aid to the child he discovers a happiness, small, but more than he has ever had. He sees the family joyful at the return of the child and all the love that he never had. He decides to make some improvement to his situation. He believes that there might be a God after all. He remembers the church on his corner with a cross on top. He attends and finds out about baptism and other principles of God’s expectation. He wants God with all his being and so gets baptized. He participates in the church, learns service and a lot of the basics of Christianity. He reads the four Gospels and is moved. He believes in Jesus and repents of his ways. He has come unto Christ. He belongs to the Church of Jesus.
Now, you might believe that he doesn't belong to the true church. You would be wrong. Doctrine and Covenants 10 was written by someone with the Book of Mormon open while they still believed the "these things" contained therein.
Doctrine and Covenants 10
64. Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;
65. For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;
66. Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely [born of the water?].
67. Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
70. And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.
But what about false doctrine taught in the corner church he attends? Christianity, as seen above, is not a theological exam nor a doctrinal test. There will be humble followers of Jesus who will be theological messes. They are still humble followers of Christ.
2 Nephi 28:14 ....they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
Helaman 6:5 Yea, and many did preach with exceedingly great power and authority, unto the bringing down many of them into the depths of humility, to be the humble followers of God and the Lamb.
One can learn charity even in churches that have horrendous doctrine. I bet you know many non-member loving people like that.
Moroni 7:47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
Remember how the Book of Mormon describes His saints.
Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God (#3), and has been from the fall of Adam (#2), and will be, forever and ever (#23), unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit (#6), and putteth off the natural man (#8) and becometh a saint (#12) through the atonement of Christ the Lord (#26), and becometh as a child (#12), submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
2 Nephi 9:18 But, behold, the righteous, the saints of the Holy One of Israel, they who have believed in the Holy One of Israel, they who have endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame of it, they shall inherit the kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and their joy shall be full forever.
It is taught that one can be a member of the "true church" while not having had the mighty change, the born again experience, and, therefore, is not a saint.
Alma 5
14. And now behold, I ask of you, MY BRETHREN OF THE CHURCH, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
49. And now I say unto you that this is the order after which I am called, yea, to preach unto my beloved brethren, yea, and every one that dwelleth in the land; yea, to preach unto all, both old and young, both bond and free; yea, I say unto you the aged, and also the middle aged, and the rising generation; yea, to cry unto them that they must repent and be born again.
Helaman 3:33 And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into THE CHURCH--NOT INTO THE CHURCH OF GOD, but into the hearts of the people who PROFESSED to belong to the church of God--
Life in the Jungle among the Heathen
Lets turn our attention to those in absolute isolation in some remote steamy jungle.
We know, from the above that all have "the Law" and know right from wrong and, if they have agency, are entice for good or ill. If all have the light of Christ, these aborigines do, too.
These are the ones that Moroni 8 refers to. They don't need baptism because they are ignorant of the principle. But, where little is given (and little is given) little is required). This does not mean that they can live profligate lives. They must still hearken to the voice of the Good Shepherd. But without the complete law, they are a law unto themselves and are blessed and rebuked by the light of Christ in the form of their conscience.
Romans 2
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
A Book of Mormon example of this is in Jacob 3. You had a bunch of ignorant Lamanites.
Nephite missionaries tried to reclaim them and restore them to the knowledge of the truth (the law). All that was vain because they were steeped in the iniquity of their fathers. But they did have an inspired aversion to polygamy and adultery which the Nephites didn't have though they had the law. Look how the Lord deals with this:
Jacob 3
5. Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father--that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
6. And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people.
7. Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?
8. O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
9. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers.
They were blessed because they obeyed one, "this", law. Where little is given, little is required. They were not under the condemnation of any other law and so they couldn't repent. But baptism is the first fruits of repentance. Therefore, those who are without the law need no baptism.
Alma 9
16. For there are many promises which are extended to the Lamanites; for it is because of the traditions of their fathers that caused them to remain in their state of ignorance; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them and prolong their existence in the land.
17. And at some period of time they will be brought to believe in his word, and to know of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers; and many of them will be saved, for the Lord will be merciful unto all who call on his name.
Lets take another example out of Paul's letters.
Colossians 3
22. Servants [slaves], obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23. And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24. Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Here you have instructions to slaves. Their circumstances allow them freedom to do almost nothing. But they have one command; obey their masters. Nothing else was required. They couldn't pay tithes and offerings for they owned nothing. They couldn't go on missions for they couldn't leave the estate. The master wouldn't let them get baptized because that was a token of submitting to a god, not the master. They couldn't learn to read and right. They couldn't obey the sabbath. They would not be accountable for any of those laws if they obeyed the master with singleness of heart while fearing God.
Would you require of them baptism? The Lord does not. Baptism is unto them who are capable of repenting.
Mosiah 15:24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord.
SAYS YOU: "Eternal reward or punishment is not determined at death."
ME: I think the Book of Mormon is clear on this point:
2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all THOSE WHO DIE IN THEIR SINS; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and REMAIN IN THEIR SINS.
If one does not deal with their sins by the time death strikes, their fate is determined.
Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
We talked about how everyone, for free agency to work, has to be enticed by God or the devil. Everyone gets the law to some extent, they all know good and evil, they are enticed, and they choose. I will repeat because there is no limitation as to who these people are.
Mosiah 2:33 For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.
Mosiah 3:11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
Restoration
There is a principle in the Book of Mormon called restoration. "I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration", says Alma to his son.
Alma 41
3. And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good IN THIS LIFE, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.
4. And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame--mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption--raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other--
5. The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil ALL THE DAY LONG even so shall he have his reward of evil WHEN THE NIGHT COMETH.
6. And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.
7. These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGES, WHETHER TO DO GOOD OR DO EVIL.
8. Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.
10. Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness [the idea behind the Telestial Kingdom]. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
11. And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.
12. And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?
13. O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish--good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.
Mormon 9:14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.
Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies AT THE TIME THAT YE GO OUT OF THIS LIFE, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
I have no idea how someone can believe that after death all of a sudden the one who was evil in this life will all of a sudden become of a different spirit and ready humbly to be informed. I also fail to see if wickedness never is happiness "shall be restored from sin to happiness" in some kind of Telestial Kingdom where they will be happy beyond all imagination.
1 Corinthians 6
9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
SAYS YOU: "1 Peter 4:6: ‘For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.’"
ME: This never says the Gospel will be preached to the wicked dead. It could very well mean that those who lived righteous lives in ignorance will have the details of the plan of salvation explained in an instant. Time is only measured unto man.
SAYS YOU: "There is moving from spirit prison to paradise in the time between death and resurrection."
ME: Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus THEY REMAIN IN THIS STATE, as well as the righteous in paradise, UNTIL THE TIME OF THEIR RESURRECTION.
Alma 40:21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and A STATE OF THE SOUL IN HAPPINESS OR IN MISERY UNTIL THE TIME WHICH IS APPOINTED OF GOD THAT THE DEAD SHALL COME FORTH, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
Moroni 10:34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite...
Doctrine and Covenants 38
5. But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day, which shall come at the end of the earth;
6. And even so will I cause the wicked to be kept, that will not hear my voice but harden their hearts, and wo, wo, wo, is their doom.
Luke 16
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. AND BESIDE ALL THIS, BETWEEN US AND YOU THERE IS A GREAT GULF FIXED: SO THAT THEY WHICH WOULD PASS FROM HENCE TO YOU CANNOT; NEITHER CAN THEY PASS TO US, THAT WOULD COME FROM THENCE.
1 Nephi 15
26. And they said unto me: What meaneth the river of water which our father saw?
28. And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf, which separated (#25) the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God.
29. And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.
30. And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide (#25) the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end (#23).
31. And they said unto me: Doth this thing mean the torment of the body in the days of probation (#5), or doth it mean the final state of the soul after the death of the temporal body, or doth it speak of the things which are temporal?
32. And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual; for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation (#5).
33. Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
SAYS YOU: "...those who reject the Gospel in their day of probation in this temporal world will perish and the Gospel will not be preached to them."
ME: Sorry. This is not what the LDSaints teach.
For one thing, the LDSaints teach all will be saved accept so few not worth considering here. So none will perish, even members who eventually reject the Church.
"Hell...it is another name for spirit prison, a place in the postmortal spirit world for those who have “died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (True to the Faith)
"died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth". How can they sin if they didn't have knowledge of the law? 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. If they didn't know the law, they could not transgress it. If they sinned in ignorance, they are covered by the atonement.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
"or in transgression, having rejected the prophets" so they were told the truth by prophets, but rejected the truth. The Church teaches that these "will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent" contrary to your assertion. You should brush up on Church teachings.
Oddly, the Church teaches that dead folks in prison who reject the gospel preaching and the offer of vicarious baptism will be glorified in the Kingdom of God!!!
"Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory" (True to the Faith)
What a mess!
SAYS YOU: "those who have not heard or receive the Gospel will have a chance to repent and be baptized"
ME: Repent for what? They can't sin in ignorance. Baptism is the first fruits of Repentance. If you can't get past the repent part, yuo can't advance to the baptism part! (Review Moroni 8)
SAYS YOU: "D&C 138"
ME: If D&C 138 is true, then the Bible and Book of Mormon are false. The D&C cannot be among the "other books" as is commonly thought.
1 Nephi 13:39 And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.
D&C does not try to convince me that "the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true" for it teaches doctrine contrary to those Books. It cannot be one of the “other books”
I reject the Doctrines and Covenants for that and other reasons. Massive "altering of the words written and gone forth is another good reason to suspect that book.
SAYS YOU: "By the way, what's mooseifer? Sounds weird!"
ME: I had a design business called Moose Loose Design. I also taught in a graphic art school. I wanted to put stuff online, but I didn't want to get the teaching materials mixed up with business stuff. I created a site called Mooseifer for the materials. Being retired, I just deleted the materials and put my personal study tools there instead. Gospel Study
, it turns out, is easy for millennials to remember.
SAYS YOU: "sounds rather heretical, even to the point of sounding delusional, with all due respect"
ME: That is how we started out, you and I. You may have seen that I am not as delusional as you thought at first. I probably can accurately be labeled heretical by LDSaint standards. But I hope you see that there is a solid Book of Mormon basis for my views.
I don't know how much further you wish to go with this, but my hope is that if you move on from our discussion, you will read the Book of Mormon in a whole new light. If nothing else, I hope you come across verses you never noticed before only with the thought of "Hey! I should have told Ray this"!