ToHick.html
by Ray Farmer

Says You: before hitting reply and lost it

Says Me: Ha! That happens to me all the time! When it does, I spend more time contemplting if the loss was devine intervention than it did to compse what, up to that time, I thought brilliant. Was there something false? A misuse of scripture? was it true but too harsh?

Says You: The iron rod represents all of God’s word that includes the D&C, PofGP, and the words of modern prophets

Says Me: Ah! and where does this list end? Apostate Fathers? Journal of Discourses?

2 Nephi 29:12 O
.... I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

Are these other nations such as England (Wesley) or perhaps Germany (Luther) or Switzerland (Zwingli) or, dare I say, Rome (St. Francise)? Fortunaly, The Lord designates the two Books we ned to consult is the Stick of Judah and the Stick of Joseph, that which comes from the loins of Lehi and that which sprung from the loins of Judah.

1 Nephi 13:40-1
And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records [Book of Mormon], which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb [Bible], and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed [Book of Mormon], as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb[Bible]; wherefore they both [Book of Mormon and Bible] shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Ah well. Once one no longer clings to these two they well, wonder into the strange roads.

Ezekiel 37:18-9
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Every writing that claims to be the Word of God, the Iron Rod, must be tested by these two Books. If they speak not according to these there is no light in them. If they cannot hold up to the two-stick test, they are not a part of the Rod but will turn out only to be a Serpent.

As much as your "other Books" are always being edited they could not be called an Iron Rod for they resemble more pipe cleaners that are bent this way and that way at the will of man.

 Says You: I fear it’s you who as rejected all of God’s word except the BofM

Says Me: I recieve words enthusiastically and then study daily if those things are true. I follow Paul's admonition( he wrote more than one, you know):

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

A good LDS application of the above is their selection of Hymns. Lots of Wesley (England) compositions as well as one by Martin Luther (Germany). You even have one from, dare I say, Rome written by Saint Francis! Another example is your own sifting througn the mess that is the Apostolic Fathers and picking, as suits you, words that kinda sound like LDS doctrine and reject a whole lot of crazy stuff. I do the same, reading, contemplating and testing against the Two Sticks to see if what is before mine eyes was spoke by God as He inspired "all nations of the earth and they shall write it". Sadly, after decades of doing the same to your "other books" I had to let them go.

Says You: Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 tells us: "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."

Says Me: I am beginning to think you don't love me, nay, repsect my scholarship. You know, but think I don't, that Section 19 was addressed to Martin Harris. The councel not to talk of things other than "repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost" was probably wise regarding poor Martin. But does it apply generally to all the Children of Zion even now? I go to www,LDS,org and find all kinds of tenets beyond those listed! Even on Mormon,org we read, "Test the power of scripture study in your life. Request a free copy of the Bible or Book of Mormon". There is nothing about requesting your "other books" nor recent Conference Issues. Certainly, next to Living Oracles, those two sticks mean nothing. Why offer books that are so passe?

Apparently "tenants" mean those conundrums that cannot be solved. LDSaints should stay away from those!

Says You: Hell is several places like Spirit Prison, Outer Darkness, and the Telestial glory. Heaven is likewise more than God’s Kingdom.

Says Me: But the the Telestial (you call hell) glory is found in God's Kingdom. So hell is a mansion in Father's House? So the Kingdom of God houses those "who reject the Savior and have observed no divine limits on their behavior". This is "the kingdom where the wicked abide", “they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus", "they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie". You have got to see what a mess this is!

You rely on Section 138, but you fail to see that the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to were not the wicked, but rather,

12. .... the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13. And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.
14. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15. I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16. They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17. Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18. While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19. And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

The Revelation emphisizes,

20. But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21. Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

So, it seems like your doctrine confuses Paradise (spirit prison) and post mortal/pre-resurrection hell (spirit prison). The Book of Mormon makes a clear distinction,

Alma 40

11. Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection--Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil--for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house--and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
14. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Again, a division into two groups. Of course, those in hell are in "a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them", Indicationg that a school environment is unknown there and also indicating that their hell continues after the judgement, where all they can expect is, rather than glorification in happiness beyond comphrehension, "the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them". And, clearly, there is not any movi9ng over to Paradise for them after some sort of suffering to pay for their sins (blasphemy) because it specifically says "they remain in this state....until the time of their resurrection.

What a conundrum!